Do YOU think ML bass is disjointed?

[Big Dog RJ]

Yo BD!

Always enjoy your colorful commentaries/comments.
In the context of ML products more than a few years old, I would say there are significant updates/upgrades that could be applied that would significantly improve the technical performance of the speakers. 15, 20+ years back, you could not buy near-professional grade 2-channel amps with built in low/high/band-pass filtering for less than $500. My money would be on that (add in a soldering iron) instead of battling with upgrading caps and bits-and-bobs in way-old X-Over circuits.

See Brandon's (@Brandon Hartwick) thread on upgrading Aerius:
https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/how-to-active-bass-section.19237/
I am planning a similar approach for my SL3/Theater/Aerius system - I just need to (a) get the startup I'm working on funded, and (b) figure out how to best leverage my existing amp investment (Bryston 4B ST series) to power the panels.

BTW, for those following Gayle Sanders and Eikon, he's pretty much gone the same route (tho' FAR more complex)... reminds me of the early days of CGI in Hollywood... "fix it in post"! Basically, if you start with a solid bunch of hardware, and great design, you can sort out things about how our human ears hear things through powerful and incredibly fast DSP. This tech was not available when the ML guys first started working on Hybrid ESLs... it was ALWAYS the biggest design challenge.

All the best to all, and ting back to "normal"!

Russ

Nice one mate!

Couldn't agree more, in fact I've come across quite a number of owners, both ML and Maggie's, who've done remarkable mods on their gear, resulting in top performance!

Last year, around Feb 2022, my CJ techie finalised my monoblocks bias mod. First were the Output tubes, then Teflon caps then Vishay resistors, and finally the bias adjustments on a higher Class A output. The preamp had a full layout of Teflons as well as Vishays in critical stages... so overall it took about 2yrs to complete. It did cost me a pretty penny, though fully worth it! Especially now, the way the CJ monoblocks fully grip the CLX's is outstanding! Many who have visited and auditioned, didn't realise what 60w in Class A can do with stats.
They don't really require tons of watts to sound best. It's all about high current capacity + highly stable voltages that will drive stats optimally.

At this point in time, I think I'm done! Ah! Those famous last words... but seriously. I've been on this roller coaster since I was a teen, ran my own dealership network as a side gig in my midlife and now I'm tired! Just chilling...
Not chasing the latest & greatest anymore, I don't see the point, mainly because there's always one other round the corner.

Just last Oct, I was at my bank having a serious chat with my account manager to draw up some funds to buy CJ's top of the line Class A monoblocks- ART108A's (160w all tube design monoblocks at 60grand a pair). As we were drawing out the forms, the wifey also happened to arrive for the final chat Bank manager goes, so you want to buy "electric blocks?" From the US... correct? I tried my best to explain the difference between monoblocks and so called "electric blocks" ... whatever. And so what do these do? I replied they drive speakers... stats! So he goes, "ah...! So you need electric blocks to power the speakers whiles driving your car!" Ok no worries, let's write it up! That's about when I had a hernia and decided not to bother explaining anymore

Then the wifey walked in, and all hell broke loose! She slapped us both silly ! and knocked some sense into me. Asked me what's wrong with the present Class A monoblocks I've already got? I said, nothing! In fact they're mighty fine ... and that's all she wrote!

I would have been the biggest idiot on earth or at least in Melbourne if I had gone ahead with that 60grand purchase, 60 large ones just for amplifiers! You got to be nuts...
Thank goodness gracious for the wifey, if not for her, I wouldn't probably even be in Aus! I'd be in some pond hole somewhere listening to frogs croaking... that'll be my highend audio, ha!

So, my point is... if the gear you have works really well and there are ways of modding it with further improvements then go for it! Once you've achieved a certain level of performance and the system has reached its threshold and it sounds bloody marvellous then why change?
Just leave it! And enjoy those fine tunes!

I'm sure those ML stats you've put together in a particular config, with the Bryston must be sounding tops! If the real feel is there, and it has reached full synergy then why change.

Woof! RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Oh! I forgot to mention, that 60grand is without the preamp... so add another 40grand to that for the ART88 (CJ's latest & greatest). So it would've been a cool 100grand just for a damn pre-power combination! No wonder the wifey slapped us both silly!

*note* currency is in $AUD not USD.

Will never go there again!
Cheeeers, RJ

 

[jimbill]

Nice one mate!

Couldn't agree more, in fact I've come across quite a number of owners, both ML and Maggie's, who've done remarkable mods on their gear, resulting in top performance!

Last year, around Feb 2022, my CJ techie finalised my monoblocks bias mod. First were the Output tubes, then Teflon caps then Vishay resistors, and finally the bias adjustments on a higher Class A output. The preamp had a full layout of Teflons as well as Vishays in critical stages... so overall it took about 2yrs to complete. It did cost me a pretty penny, though fully worth it! Especially now, the way the CJ monoblocks fully grip the CLX's is outstanding! Many who have visited and auditioned, didn't realise what 60w in Class A can do with stats.
They don't really require tons of watts to sound best. It's all about high current capacity + highly stable voltages that will drive stats optimally.

At this point in time, I think I'm done! Ah! Those famous last words... but seriously. I've been on this roller coaster since I was a teen, ran my own dealership network as a side gig in my midlife and now I'm tired! Just chilling...
Not chasing the latest & greatest anymore, I don't see the point, mainly because there's always one other round the corner.

Just last Oct, I was at my bank having a serious chat with my account manager to draw up some funds to buy CJ's top of the line Class A monoblocks- ART108A's (160w all tube design monoblocks at 60grand a pair). As we were drawing out the forms, the wifey also happened to arrive for the final chat Bank manager goes, so you want to buy "electric blocks?" From the US... correct? I tried my best to explain the difference between monoblocks and so called "electric blocks" ... whatever. And so what do these do? I replied they drive speakers... stats! So he goes, "ah...! So you need electric blocks to power the speakers whiles driving your car!" Ok no worries, let's write it up! That's about when I had a hernia and decided not to bother explaining anymore

Then the wifey walked in, and all hell broke loose! She slapped us both silly ! and knocked some sense into me. Asked me what's wrong with the present Class A monoblocks I've already got? I said, nothing! In fact they're mighty fine ... and that's all she wrote!

I would have been the biggest idiot on earth or at least in Melbourne if I had gone ahead with that 60grand purchase, 60 large ones just for amplifiers! You got to be nuts...
Thank goodness gracious for the wifey, if not for her, I wouldn't probably even be in Aus! I'd be in some pond hole somewhere listening to frogs croaking... that'll be my highend audio, ha!

So, my point is... if the gear you have works really well and there are ways of modding it with further improvements then go for it! Once you've achieved a certain level of performance and the system has reached its threshold and it sounds bloody marvellous then why change?
Just leave it! And enjoy those fine tunes!

I'm sure those ML stats you've put together in a particular config, with the Bryston must be sounding tops! If the real feel is there, and it has reached full synergy then why change.

I wish someone like you on this forum would try the BACCH4mac. No risk purchase. If you don't like it, cancel after 14 days. It doesn't change the sound of my speakers, it just increases the width of the sound stage and refines the presence of each instrument.

I was listening to the high-res version of "Kind of Blue" last night. The piano was wide of the left speaker and very defined. The drums wide of the right speaker. When I bypassed the program everything came back closer to the width of the speakers. It just feels like there is more of a live presentation.

 

[Leporello]

Some folks who post on Audio Asylum, like other audio websites, are uninformed.

Agree. Hopefully you try constructively to correct them.

 

[Leporello]

I'm sure it would be a challenge but apparently ML managed it with the CLS series. In any case I am perfectly happy with the bass integration of my Montis.

My CLS II's, in my room, peak at about 40hz and nosedive below that. At least 90% of my listening is chamber music, solo keyboard (piano, harpsichord and clavichord) and moderate sized orchestral. For that kind of music the bare CLS are fine for me. But I also like pipe organ and huge orchestras like Mahler symphonies (which sometimes include pipe organ), so I use a sub, and cross it over around where the panels die, so as to interfere minimally with their beautiful purity. I watch movies, but have little interest in floor shaking special effects.

 

[Leporello]

I wish someone like you on this forum would try the BACCH4mac. No risk purchase. If you don't like it, cancel after 14 days. It doesn't change the sound of my speakers, it just increases the width of the sound stage and refines the presence of each instrument.

I was listening to the high-res version of "Kind of Blue" last night. The piano was wide of the left speaker and very defined. The drums wide of the right speaker. When I bypassed the program everything came back closer to the width of the speakers. It just feels like there is more of a live presentation.

I experience imaging beyond the extent of the speakers with my LP version, without any special processing. I don't know how Miles did it. I believe he mixed it himself.

 

[JonFo]

I'm sure it would be a challenge but apparently ML managed it with the CLS series

Not really; they drop off pretty quickly and can't do high output below 200Hz. I'd always pair a CLS with a couple of subs, the lowest XO I'd use for the panel would be 120Hz (at 24/dB Oct.), and even then, output levels would need to be moderated.

If all you listen to is female vocals and chamber music, a CLS can be satisfying, but it can't do a Grand Piano, much less an organ with the authority my system delivers on solo recordings of either instrument.

 

[beekay]

I wish someone like you on this forum would try the BACCH4mac. No risk purchase. If you don't like it, cancel after 14 days. It doesn't change the sound of my speakers, it just increases the width of the sound stage and refines the presence of each instrument.

I was listening to the high-res version of "Kind of Blue" last night. The piano was wide of the left speaker and very defined. The drums wide of the right speaker. When I bypassed the program everything came back closer to the width of the speakers. It just feels like there is more of a live presentation.

I am using the BACCH4MAC Intro in a small room (10w x 15L) with a pair of ML ESL-X's
Even in that small space (the speakers are 6 ft apart from each other), I can hear an audible difference with the BACCH. The sound stage expands, and everything is more dispersed.

 

[jimbill]

I am using the BACCH4MAC Intro in a small room (10w x 15L) with a pair of ML ESL-X's
Even in that small space (the speakers are 6 ft apart from each other), I can hear an audible difference with the BACCH. The sound stage expands, and everything is more dispersed.

How long have you had the program?

I have a much larger room, although it isn't dedicated to music. I was listening to Jeff Beck "Blow by Blow" last night and the sound was coming from almost 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock. Much wider than without the program.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I wish someone like you on this forum would try the BACCH4mac. No risk purchase. If you don't like it, cancel after 14 days. It doesn't change the sound of my speakers, it just increases the width of the sound stage and refines the presence of each instrument.

I was listening to the high-res version of "Kind of Blue" last night. The piano was wide of the left speaker and very defined. The drums wide of the right speaker. When I bypassed the program everything came back closer to the width of the speakers. It just feels like there is more of a live presentation.

Nice one jimb, glad you found something better to improve your system's soundstage.

I was just at a demo today at my ML dealer's place. He was in fact using something quite similar, just to enhance or interface with the streaming rig, going through the ESL11A's, it was quite good. Next week, he mentioned that he's getting hold of some guy to install this particular Bacch software gadget, and has invited over a few of us. I'm not into streaming at all, just prefer the physical formats at the highest quality of recordings as possible, which suits me just fine! Although no harm done... I thought this would certainly be a learning curve, so might as well check it out and have a good time with my fellow audio maties. So I'll report back if it is worthwhile reporting.

At this stage, from what I've put together in the form of a custom type sound, every component was carefully selected based on a particular reference, over a period of 15yrs. Each of my CJ gear was modded to arrive at a unique custom sound that only very highly skilled techs are willing to even attempt such mods (especially Class A bias output mods, not an easy gig). Those CJ amp mods took over 2yrs to complete, so now I'm extremely pleased with the results and will leave it at that. The wide soundstage depth is beyond the CLX's, they simply disappear! The 3D holographic imaging is just superb! Along with the rest of its attributes, such as speed, articulation, high definition, inner detail, and most of all musicality that matters to me.

This is a very important aspect for me, such that when listening to music across different genres, I need the system to reproduce exactly what's on the recording or at least 98% of what's on the recording. I sincerely believe that I've achieved exactly that! Also, from what others have heard from their initial visits and onto multiple visits, there's no denying it. Although a few mates have commented that I should have placed this wonderful musical gear in a dedicated listening room. Yes, maybe so but that's not my thing... it was in the past when I was selling gear to other customers but now I rather place the audio rig in the living room for all to enjoy, not just by one person.

The other thing I based this reference on was the actual music or recording itself. I've heard very lofty systems where all types of music sounds the same! No matter what you playback, from Jazz to Rock or pop, it all sounds the same. This is because the gear in the system is either all the same brand or it has the exact same signature sound, therefore when reproduced from the speakers, I'm hearing that gear not so much the music / recording. When I listen to other well thought out systems, where each component has been fully utilized towards its intended manner and reaches a point of great synergy then everything falls into place nicely! Every type of music sounds different! From Jazz to classical to Turkish to Iranian... whatever, it all sounds like real music! The recording is being played back in full fidelity, unhindered and uncolored, and this aspect is very important for me to enjoy, not just the gear regardless of price. Price doesn't mean anything! One of those systems which was an absolute flop was hovering around 700grand!
I won't mention brands because that would be unethical. So I'll leave it at that.

Just few months ago, around Oct, I was seriously considering the Nordost Valhalla cables or even the Odins. However, for 15 to 30grand just for cables that's ridiculous, so I won't go there. Then I've ventured into the Esoteric Clock G01x, which was superb! I had several home trials and it was quite evident upon the improvements partnered with my current Esoteric digital player. However, that clock alone is 20grand... so again I'm having trouble justifying this kind of spend.

All these issues of justifying such spend happened over the Xmas period leading up to now. I've seen people's houses crash, couldn't afford rent and on top of that, our usual bush fire season and the terrible floods we've had across our eastern states. People are losing their homes, even the ones with full-time jobs can't secure rental properties because the cost has skyrocketed! Many are struggling with the basics, and here I am, worried about soundstage depth...??? What a load of bollocks!
In Aus, we've got only around 22mil people, and some are struggling every day, which definitely shouldn't be the case in our rich nation. Compared to the US, you have 350mil people, the disparity gap is widening every year, and most can't even afford health care! What a tragic situation. We're no where near that as yet but we still have small issues that could have been fixed a long time ago, rather they were too focused in big-spending on "other areas." I would look at it as bad financial management. Now, things are getting costlier each day and I'm getting worried about the younger generation. My daughter still has 5yrs of Uni to go, (she's into science, forensics & criminology) I wonder what the housing market and cost of living is going to look like when she graduates. So at this stage, I thought it would be best if I focused on her future rather than audio software gadgets, Nordost cables and Esoteric clocks...

So with that said, I'm 120% satisfied with what I've got and that's about as far as I intend to take it. Like I've said before, we can always get caught up in this vicious cycle of upgrades and never ended improvements, chasing the so called ultimate... it doesn't exist! When you're system has reached it's full potential, just leave it, sit back and enjoy those fine tunes! I've reached my limit. Thanks.

WOOF!
RJ

 

[Duke]

I try to stay out of the frequency bands of the vocalists. That is one of the best strengths of Martin Logans, conveying the timbre of the singer.
"The voiced speech of a typical adult male will have a fundamental frequency from 85 to 155 Hz, and that of a typical adult female from 165 to 255 Hz.[3] Thus, the fundamental frequency of most speech falls below the bottom of the voice frequency band as defined. However, enough of the harmonic series will be present for the missing fundamental to create the impression of hearing the fundamental tone."
Voice frequency - Wikipedia

I cut off my speakers at 80Hz like the HT setups use.

 

[jimbill]

Nice one jimb, glad you found something better to improve your system's soundstage.

I was just at a demo today at my ML dealer's place. He was in fact using something quite similar, just to enhance or interface with the streaming rig, going through the ESL11A's, it was quite good. Next week, he mentioned that he's getting hold of some guy to install this particular Bacch software gadget, and has invited over a few of us. I'm not into streaming at all, just prefer the physical formats at the highest quality of recordings as possible, which suits me just fine! Although no harm done... I thought this would certainly be a learning curve, so might as well check it out and have a good time with my fellow audio maties. So I'll report back if it is worthwhile reporting.

At this stage, from what I've put together in the form of a custom type sound, every component was carefully selected based on a particular reference, over a period of 15yrs. Each of my CJ gear was modded to arrive at a unique custom sound that only very highly skilled techs are willing to even attempt such mods (especially Class A bias output mods, not an easy gig). Those CJ amp mods took over 2yrs to complete, so now I'm extremely pleased with the results and will leave it at that. The wide soundstage depth is beyond the CLX's, they simply disappear! The 3D holographic imaging is just superb! Along with the rest of its attributes, such as speed, articulation, high definition, inner detail, and most of all musicality that matters to me.

This is a very important aspect for me, such that when listening to music across different genres, I need the system to reproduce exactly what's on the recording or at least 98% of what's on the recording. I sincerely believe that I've achieved exactly that! Also, from what others have heard from their initial visits and onto multiple visits, there's no denying it. Although a few mates have commented that I should have placed this wonderful musical gear in a dedicated listening room. Yes, maybe so but that's not my thing... it was in the past when I was selling gear to other customers but now I rather place the audio rig in the living room for all to enjoy, not just by one person.

The other thing I based this reference on was the actual music or recording itself. I've heard very lofty systems where all types of music sounds the same! No matter what you playback, from Jazz to Rock or pop, it all sounds the same. This is because the gear in the system is either all the same brand or it has the exact same signature sound, therefore when reproduced from the speakers, I'm hearing that gear not so much the music / recording. When I listen to other well thought out systems, where each component has been fully utilized towards its intended manner and reaches a point of great synergy then everything falls into place nicely! Every type of music sounds different! From Jazz to classical to Turkish to Iranian... whatever, it all sounds like real music! The recording is being played back in full fidelity, unhindered and uncolored, and this aspect is very important for me to enjoy, not just the gear regardless of price. Price doesn't mean anything! One of those systems which was an absolute flop was hovering around 700grand!
I won't mention brands because that would be unethical. So I'll leave it at that.

Just few months ago, around Oct, I was seriously considering the Nordost Valhalla cables or even the Odins. However, for 15 to 30grand just for cables that's ridiculous, so I won't go there. Then I've ventured into the Esoteric Clock G01x, which was superb! I had several home trials and it was quite evident upon the improvements partnered with my current Esoteric digital player. However, that clock alone is 20grand... so again I'm having trouble justifying this kind of spend.

All these issues of justifying such spend happened over the Xmas period leading up to now. I've seen people's houses crash, couldn't afford rent and on top of that, our usual bush fire season and the terrible floods we've had across our eastern states. People are losing their homes, even the ones with full-time jobs can't secure rental properties because the cost has skyrocketed! Many are struggling with the basics, and here I am, worried about soundstage depth...??? What a load of bollocks!
In Aus, we've got only around 22mil people, and some are struggling every day, which definitely shouldn't be the case in our rich nation. Compared to the US, you have 350mil people, the disparity gap is widening every year, and most can't even afford health care! What a tragic situation. We're no where near that as yet but we still have small issues that could have been fixed a long time ago, rather they were too focused in big-spending on "other areas." I would look at it as bad financial management. Now, things are getting costlier each day and I'm getting worried about the younger generation. My daughter still has 5yrs of Uni to go, (she's into science, forensics & criminology) I wonder what the housing market and cost of living is going to look like when she graduates. So at this stage, I thought it would be best if I focused on her future rather than audio software gadgets, Nordost cables and Esoteric clocks...

So with that said, I'm 120% satisfied with what I've got and that's about as far as I intend to take it. Like I've said before, we can always get caught up in this vicious cycle of upgrades and never ended improvements, chasing the so called ultimate... it doesn't exist! When you're system has reached it's full potential, just leave it, sit back and enjoy those fine tunes! I've reached my limit. Thanks.

WOOF!
RJ

I look forward to your impression of the BACCH system. Is he going just have the Intro or is he installing the Audiophile hardware? The Audiophile version has head tracking that supposedly greatly enlarges the sweet spot and increases the 3D effect. I was speaking to the developer yesterday and he assured me that the Audiophile version will be a noticeable upgrade. I'm hoping to purchase it later this year.

I am definitely not an upgrade type of owner. I've had the same amps, preamp, CD player, cables, and interconnects since my original purchase of my ML Ascents in 2003. I only upgraded my preamp and CD player because my first ones died. My 13a's will probably be my last speakers. I got the BACCH Intro out of curiosity after reading the reviews and the credentials/history of the developer, Dr. Edgar Choueiri. I was not going to have any problem asking for a refund and returning the Mac to Costco if I didn't feel it was worth it. Turned out to be totally worth it.

 

[Robert D]

I look forward to your impression of the BACCH system. Is he going just have the Intro or is he installing the Audiophile hardware? The Audiophile version has head tracking that supposedly greatly enlarges the sweet spot and increases the 3D effect. I was speaking to the developer yesterday and he assured me that the Audiophile version will be a noticeable upgrade. I'm hoping to purchase it later this year.

I am definitely not an upgrade type of owner. I've had the same amps, preamp, CD player, cables, and interconnects since my original purchase of my ML Ascents in 2003. I only upgraded my preamp and CD player because my first ones died. My 13a's will probably be my last speakers. I got the BACCH Intro out of curiosity after reading the reviews and the credentials/history of the developer, Dr. Edgar Choueiri. I was not going to have any problem asking for a refund and returning the Mac to Costco if I didn't feel it was worth it. Turned out to be totally worth it.

Do you know how the head tracking works? Hopefully you don't have to wear anything on your head. The gaming devices I've used all require wearing a hat or headset.

 

[jimbill]

Do you know how the head tracking works? Hopefully you don't have to wear anything on your head. The gaming devices I've used all require wearing a hat or headset.

You put in ear buds, sit in the sweet spot, the audio interface unit does some sound sweeps. After that, when you sit down there is a camera that tracks your head movements. They offer the camera or you can purchase your own. That's as much as I know, not having experienced it yet.

https://www.theoretica.us/bacch4mac/

 

[wink]

Not really; they drop off pretty quickly and can't do high output below 200Hz. I'd always pair a CLS with a couple of subs, the lowest XO I'd use for the panel would be 120Hz (at 24/dB Oct.), and even then, output levels would need to be moderated.

If all you listen to is female vocals and chamber music, a CLS can be satisfying, but it can't do a Grand Piano, much less an organ with the authority my system delivers on solo recordings of either instrument.

The Prodigy X-over point is 250hz which in my opinion, is perfect spot to cross for voice and guitar. Don’t think my 15in panel would do as well at 315hz as your huge Monolith panel.

 

[JJarego]

Hi everyone,

My 2 cents on this (I own the Summit X but have listened to ML in many different occasions). Yes, the bass may quite easily sound disjoint, but through my optimization journey with the Summit's I'm quite happy with how integrated they now sound. And, in my experience, the three main factors that contributed to that were:

1) Regulation of bass response. The Summit X have controls on the 25Hz and 50Hz and properly tuning them makes a world of difference. Without getting this right, they can quite easily sound boomy and disjointed. This doesn't cost any money

2) Mechanical setup: replacing it's stock feet (I'm using Isoacoustics Gaia II) should be mandatory. You will not know the true potential of the ML without going through it. I'm curious about the effect of the Nordost Sort Fut (which I'm using somewhere else in the system with very good results) or any of the pods from Magico ... but price considered, the Gaia's should be a no-brainer for any ML owner. I also have these sitting on slab of black granite which extends the results even further. (please mind that the improvement is not by any means restricted to the bass). From a mechanical perspective, the Masterpiece series may very well be a step forward but I haven't really listened to them in a "controled environment"

3) Powercords: treating the ML's with the very best powercords you can get really pays off. It's amazing how much more agility and cohesion you get on the bass by swapping powercords (also I'm using a dedicated power line)

So, as of today, no complaints on the bass ... but it took me some patience and extra spending to get there. But I can happily say that our beloved "babies" are well worth the effort.

Cheers!
Joao

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Nice one JJ (Joao). The Summit X are outstanding stats!
Interesting you mentioned the Nordost Sort Fut... I've certainly tried them! I first tried them on my Quad ESL 2905's and although they made a significant difference, it also increased the height quite a bit. However, two things happened after that:

1. I sold off the Quads after multiple panel failures, as well as one of the HT trannies failed on one speaker, and two LT trannies failed on the other speaker.
2. I ended up with the CLX Art's and preferred using the Gaia II's on the CLX's.

The Sort Futs also incorporate a suspension system that is nearly identical to the Gaia's but is executed quite differently. The Sort Futs are very sturdy, extremely well designed and do a marvellous job of decoupling.
Whereas the Gaia's are equally real solid stuff, and they also have a sort of suction affect on its bottom surface, providing a very secure footing to solid surfaces. I would refer to this as the perfect coupling interface between speakers to hard flooring.

Spikes also act as a decoupling interface but in my experience, spikes would be preferred for carpeting and soft flooring. I wouldn't place spikes on hard surfaces, they ruin the floors unless used in conjunction with an extra layer of granite slabs or something else of solid material protecting the floors.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter what type of fittings are used to achieve coupling or decoupling, as long as either method is executed properly and enhances the overall performance.

I agree with your power cords experience, especially on hybrid stats, they do make a significant improvement in LF detail and bass layering. You hear much more detail!

For virtually the same affect, I found the Gaia's offered a more viable solution compared to the Sort Fut, and the biggest factor being the price component! As you're well aware, Nordost always produces extremely well designed accessories that deliver top end performance. At the same time, their prices are also at the top end...

Try both if possible and then decide. If you can afford it, I would go for the Sort Futs but I managed to attain the quality of bass and LF detail by using the Gaia II's on my CLX's.
Another factor, the Sort Futs were much taller than the Gaia's, which made the CLX's look a bit odd... but that's just from a cosmetic point of view.

The Sort Futs are really quite remarkable, without a doubt! And I'm glad I had the chance to try them out. Without trying, you'll never know!

Cheers, RJ

 

[Leporello]

After all that was said and done on this thread, I will add that I used to use Ascents and never cared for the bass-- the main reason I tried them with a sub (Descent i), but the problem is in the mid-bass, above the sub region. Eventually I got my used CLS II's and never looked back. I will say the new line of hybrids seem to be a whole different kettle of fish, but I've never gotten a chance to sit down and listen critically to them with my choice of material over an extended period. At shows, everyone wants to listen to rock, which is a poor predictor of what I'm looking for (I'm talking to you, Dennis Chern)

 

[JJarego]

Nice one JJ (Joao). The Summit X are outstanding stats!
Interesting you mentioned the Nordost Sort Fut... I've certainly tried them! I first tried them on my Quad ESL 2905's and although they made a significant difference, it also increased the height quite a bit. However, two things happened after that:

1. I sold off the Quads after multiple panel failures, as well as one of the HT trannies failed on one speaker, and two LT trannies failed on the other speaker.
2. I ended up with the CLX Art's and preferred using the Gaia II's on the CLX's.

The Sort Futs also incorporate a suspension system that is nearly identical to the Gaia's but is executed quite differently. The Sort Futs are very sturdy, extremely well designed and do a marvellous job of decoupling.
Whereas the Gaia's are equally real solid stuff, and they also have a sort of suction affect on its bottom surface, providing a very secure footing to solid surfaces. I would refer to this as the perfect coupling interface between speakers to hard flooring.

Spikes also act as a decoupling interface but in my experience, spikes would be preferred for carpeting and soft flooring. I wouldn't place spikes on hard surfaces, they ruin the floors unless used in conjunction with an extra layer of granite slabs or something else of solid material protecting the floors.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter what type of fittings are used to achieve coupling or decoupling, as long as either method is executed properly and enhances the overall performance.

I agree with your power cords experience, especially on hybrid stats, they do make a significant improvement in LF detail and bass layering. You hear much more detail!

For virtually the same affect, I found the Gaia's offered a more viable solution compared to the Sort Fut, and the biggest factor being the price component! As you're well aware, Nordost always produces extremely well designed accessories that deliver top end performance. At the same time, their prices are also at the top end...

Try both if possible and then decide. If you can afford it, I would go for the Sort Futs but I managed to attain the quality of bass and LF detail by using the Gaia II's on my CLX's.
Another factor, the Sort Futs were much taller than the Gaia's, which made the CLX's look a bit odd... but that's just from a cosmetic point of view.

The Sort Futs are really quite remarkable, without a doubt! And I'm glad I had the chance to try them out. Without trying, you'll never know!

Cheers, RJ

Hi @Big Dog RJ ! Woww ... someone has tried the Sort Fut. I did not because I only have 4 of them (although it occurred to me using only two of them in each speaker just to check if that would be a step in the right direction). Knowing that you have that benchmark and are happy with the Gaia's is quite reassuring The cost difference is huge and I'm so happy with the sound as it is that I'm not feeling the urge to try something different

Since you're using the CLX Art (which, unfortunately, I've never listened to ), and they are not an hybrid design, I would guess that the effect of the powercords may be less extensive, but still, there's always a difference. At some point in my life I had the Soundlab A-1 (huge and with reliability issues) but there's really not anything like a full range electrostatic speaker.

Cheers,
JJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

After all that was said and done on this thread, I will add that I used to use Ascents and never cared for the bass-- the main reason I tried them with a sub (Descent i), but the problem is in the mid-bass, above the sub region. Eventually I got my used CLS II's and never looked back. I will say the new line of hybrids seem to be a whole different kettle of fish, but I've never gotten a chance to sit down and listen critically to them with my choice of material over an extended period. At shows, everyone wants to listen to rock, which is a poor predictor of what I'm looking for (I'm talking to you, Dennis Chern)

G'day mate,
Very true about hifi show demos on ML using source material that's not really up to par or Avant Garde music for that matter. They rather use some average material and aren't fussed by it. If only they used the right material and music formats, those ML demos can shift gears into super charge mode and really take off! It's one of those brands I guess where you can play any type of material and get away with it. Also goes to show ML stats are quite comfortable with any type of music, maybe that's their ploy... I don't know.

Nice one on the CLSII's btw. I really enjoyed my time with the CLSIIz's but it was short lived because the earlier version didn't quite last in tropical climes. These are very heavy tropical climes I'm referring to... I remember at the time, my Spore dealer mentioned that these types of stats require a climate controlled room. I didn't listen and so suffered the consequences. The II-z version was slightly modded towards these conditions, so I was told but they didn't last too long either! Or least they were OK surpassing the longevity of the II's and nearly as long as Maggie's, which weren't any better in tropical climes only just! Quad ESL's were hopeless, far too many issues, so I ventured off panel types and onto Infinity's. This was around 90 to 2001, it was only after 2010 that I got back to stats, merely because Down Unda, the climate is ideal! So it was an absolute delight to get back to these wonderful stats. Nothing quite like them, absolutely outstanding!

Cheers and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ