Do YOU think ML bass is disjointed?

[jimbill]

Seems every time somebody wants to dismiss ML speakers that is their first argument. A recent post on the Planar forum of Audio Asylum again made such a statement.

I find my 13a's integrate bass quite well.

 

[sleepysurf]

IMHO, the latest iteration of hybrid models, the Masterpiece Series, has phenomenal woofer/panel integration on their own, even before running ARC Genesis for the woofers.

Those who "complain" about ML hybrid stats have clearly never heard the latest models properly set up for the room. Unfortunately, most audio shows I've attended with ML setups have not been optimally set up, resulting in mushy/boomy bass.

I was hoping ML (perhaps Anthem/Paradigm, too) would have room(s) at the upcoming FL Audio Expo in Tampa, Feb 17-19. Unfortunately, they aren't listed as an exhibitor.

 

[ttocs]

I also love how the woofers and panel love each other these days! And ARC really has no bearing on it. It's all in the design. ARC just helps to tell the speaker what the room is capable of.

 

[Robert D]

My Prodigy speakers sound great and are integrated just fine IMO. They are older tech too, from the year 2000.

 

[BigGuy]

Seems every time somebody wants to dismiss ML speakers that is their first argument. A recent post on the Planar forum of Audio Asylum again made such a statement.

I find my 13a's integrate bass quite well.

IIRC, the disjointed bass was a characteristic noted in Monolith I, II, and (less so) III. Have not seen this shortcoming noted with current generation with powered woofers.

 

[/mp]

The question and answer are meaningless without reference to how disjointed & compared to what. My boolean response in a non-boolean universe is no, they do not seem disjointed.

Hope this helps,

 

[jtucker]

I talked to one of the ML reps at a show a while back. He claimed the DSP in later models was used to match the phase of the woofer to the phase of the panel at the crossover point. That has been my experience as well.

 

[jimbill]

I talked to one of the ML reps at a show a while back. He claimed the DSP in later models was used to match the phase of the woofer to the phase of the panel at the crossover point. That has been my experience as well.

There's a poster on AA, who owns Sound Labs, who swears there is no way these speakers can sound right because they crossover at the most critical point.

 

[jtucker]

IF ML could get the crossover point down to 150 Hz, they would really have something...

 

[jimbill]

IF ML could get the crossover point down to 150 Hz, they would really have something...

How much bigger would the panel have to be? That's probably the problem.

 

[as350_b3]

I recently listened to a new set of 15a speakers and I was amazed how well everything is sounding together. I think the old argument from 25 years ago is no longer valid.

 

[Leporello]

There's a poster on AA, who owns Sound Labs, who swears there is no way these speakers can sound right because they crossover at the most critical point.

Sort of like proving that birds can’t fly.

 

[codesx100]

There's a poster on AA, who owns Sound Labs, who swears there is no way these speakers can sound right because they crossover at the most critical point.

Odd after listening to MLs nothing else sounds right.....

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Nice one maties!
In fact, that was definitely the case few decades ago... hence the very reason why ML pays Joe V big bucks to keep his imagination working, churning out those dsp and special Joe V- digital filters! For without these gadgets, and marvellous mind of JoeV, that bass driver to panel integration would never work!

I also believe the high powered Class D amplifiers that control the LF drivers and also used in ML's BF series subs are an integral component in getting the bass to be more linear with far greater speed and agility. They really move quite fast!

Using aluminium drivers, certainly helps with this greater linearity and speed, plus far greater rigidness. One of my very good mates who has still has the Statements Evo-II's, changed all the paper fibre cones on the mid bass towers to full aluminium type, and the performance differences are stunning! The other main reason changing from paper fibre to aluminium was because over a period of time, the paper fibre drivers deteriorated, hence due to tropical climes.

There are quite a number of other hybrid type speaker systems that incorporate various other gadgets to arrive at a more seamless integration between panel and bass drivers. For example, the Gryphon Pendragon system and Genesis Dragons or now called the Primes, use a newer version of Arnie Nudell's famous Servo controlled bass unit. This is quite a complex unit to use and can cause all sorts of issues. However, once set up right, it works quite well.

Similarly Avant Garde uses dsp engines, Class D amps and an array parametric equalisers in digital domain to arrive at better bass to horn integration. Even on their older systems, it was quite apparent that the bass drivers were off track... nothing close to the speed of horns back then.
However, now AG's horns are far better in overall improvements, covering all angles compared to their previous series. So has Genesis and Gryphon come a long way, and continue to push the envelope towards superior quality.

Considering these very lofty systems, I sincerely believe that ML has really done well with their latest Masterpiece series and the BF series subs, especially when mating with full range stats, such as CLX's or other hybrids.

Would be interesting to see what type of new gear ML cones up with, especially after this level of high quality... can't imagine what the level of performance will be at in say 10yrs from now. Looking forward to it!

Cheers, and enjoy those very fine tunes!
Woof! RJ

 

[JonFo]

IIRC, the disjointed bass was a characteristic noted in Monolith I, II, and (less so) III. Have not seen this shortcoming noted with current generation with powered woofers.

Oh, even the Monolith IIIp was a sorry mess due to the crappy crossover. When used with a DSP active crossover and a modern woofer, they do quite well.
Same for the Sequel II.

These and other older models are salvageable by going full-active XO and tuning them to your room.

The Masterpiece series with active low-pass crossovers and tuned DSP are very cohesive, more so once ARC is run.

 

[JonFo]

IF ML could get the crossover point down to 150 Hz, they would really have something...

Nope, dipole cancellation makes that a serious challenge regardless of panel size.

Even the large Monolith panels work much better when crossed over at 315Hz with a steep 24 dB/oct slope.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Exactly right! Comment on slope and x-over point on Monolith's by Jonfo, is spot on!

We may think that there are better ways towards ML stats x-overs, improving upon bass to panel integration. That being the case, I'm 110% certain that the tech's & designers at ML have taken into consideration the best possible x-over points to attain.

The user/owner can always tweak and create their own mods to arrive at a custom sound. Whatever it may be to satisfy the owner, I do believe ML has covered every angle to arrive at a superior design.

Of course moving towards the future, it would be very interesting to learn on ML's new design, taking over from the Masterpiece line.

One thing for sure is, it better be darn good because the Masterpiece series is currently at the top of the podium. Definitely something to look forward to.

Cheers, RJ

 

[jtucker]

From JonFo Nope, dipole cancellation makes that a serious challenge regardless of panel size.

I'm sure it would be a challenge but apparently ML managed it with the CLS series. In any case I am perfectly happy with the bass integration of my Montis.

 

[Russr]

Exactly right! Comment on slope and x-over point on Monolith's by Jonfo, is spot on!

We may think that there are better ways towards ML stats x-overs, improving upon bass to panel integration. That being the case, I'm 110% certain that the tech's & designers at ML have taken into consideration the best possible x-over points to attain.

The user/owner can always tweak and create their own mods to arrive at a custom sound. Whatever it may be to satisfy the owner, I do believe ML has covered every angle to arrive at a superior design.

Of course moving towards the future, it would be very interesting to learn on ML's new design, taking over from the Masterpiece line.

One thing for sure is, it better be darn good because the Masterpiece series is currently at the top of the podium. Definitely something to look forward to.

Cheers, RJ

Yo BD!

Always enjoy your colorful commentaries/comments.
In the context of ML products more than a few years old, I would say there are significant updates/upgrades that could be applied that would significantly improve the technical performance of the speakers. 15, 20+ years back, you could not buy near-professional grade 2-channel amps with built in low/high/band-pass filtering for less than $500. My money would be on that (add in a soldering iron) instead of battling with upgrading caps and bits-and-bobs in way-old X-Over circuits.

See Brandon's (@Brandon Hartwick) thread on upgrading Aerius:
https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/how-to-active-bass-section.19237/
I am planning a similar approach for my SL3/Theater/Aerius system - I just need to (a) get the startup I'm working on funded, and (b) figure out how to best leverage my existing amp investment (Bryston 4B ST series) to power the panels.

BTW, for those following Gayle Sanders and Eikon, he's pretty much gone the same route (tho' FAR more complex)... reminds me of the early days of CGI in Hollywood... "fix it in post"! Basically, if you start with a solid bunch of hardware, and great design, you can sort out things about how our human ears hear things through powerful and incredibly fast DSP. This tech was not available when the ML guys first started working on Hybrid ESLs... it was ALWAYS the biggest design challenge.

All the best to all, and ting back to "normal"!

Russ

 

[Gordon Gray]

Some folks who post on Audio Asylum, like other audio websites, are uninformed.