Do we have any consensus on amps for Summits

[Robin]

Brilliant!

between the Summits (and Vantages) and all previous ML speakers (not counting the CLS).


Now, with the Summit, and the Vantage, ML has finally provided a hybrid that's user-friendly. They come "pre-biamped". The customer just adds the panel amp, which as I explained above, there's every reason to make a tube amp. In my view, driving one of these speakers with a big gun SS amp is a waste of money and good sound. And tube amps are natural current producing champs, so even though they generally aren't big on power (not needed anyway) they're just what an electrostat needs.

Yes they run a little hotter, and tubes need to be replaced every 4000 to 10,000 hours. But your electostats will deliver sound like no other speakers can.

Neil,

Wonderful explanation, as usual... :cheers:

Your insights, knowledge and experience of tubes powering panels is not only logical but insightfully accurate for bringing out the very best in ML electrostatic speakers, musically speaking of course. IMHO your observations of tube microdymanics preserving more musical details, I have found to be true - especially for serious music listening. I agree, my ears agree with what you are saying. I have heard the difference between SS and tubes in cone speakers. Many of our MLC membership have such as Sam, yourself and others have described the similar sounds only much better coming from your ML panels. IMHO, I just think it is the way to go for a music listening system. Though I do realize every-one's ears are different and music listening tastes (what folks require from the music) are going to very widely.

For music listening, I long for the tube sound personally.

Now for HT I believe, SS is the way to go..., and for the reasons you have so eloquently described above i. .e, because the transistors are so quick. My additional reasoning's are:

1). HT the dynamics are added to the newer films through the use of computers and computer generated sound engineering techniques using specialized high-tech and electronically advanced synthesized, sonically enhanced methods.
2). Even regular sound effects are technically altered and enhanced technically / sonically enhanced. IMHO, the proper SS amplifier (able to dip down to .5 ohm and back up to 4 ohms in a moments notice), in addition to the power, has the speed and agility to reproduce soundtracks from software - DVD, HD-DVD, Blue-Ray with greater detail and accuracy.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Ymmv?

Hi Rich,

Hope you are still coming my way this summer. Looking forward to meeting you and the family. By the by, what does that acronym stand for?

G

 

[Rich]

Hi Rich,

Hope you are still coming my way this summer. Looking forward to meeting you and the family. By the by, what does that acronym stand for?

G

Hi Gordon,

Yep, I'm coming your way the first week of August. I'll p.m. you with some details as it gets closer so that we can hopefully work out a day to get together. YMMV stands for "your mileage may vary." Just another way of saying "it's my opinion, take it for what it's worth."

 

[Caerus]

Twitch, what is the cheapest (msrp) Class A (minimum 100W/ch) SS amp you know?

The Krell KAV-400xi is a class A amp at 200 wpc @ 8 ohms and 400 wpc @ 4 ohms. It retails at about $2500. Krell and reviews indicate it is a Class A amp, but I don't know any other details or whether there is a transition. It sounds to inexpensive to be a true pure class A amp though when compared to others.

Does anyone know how well this amp performs and sounds with Vantages and is it a pure class A amp?

Brad

 

[eknuds01]

The Krell KAV-400xi is a class A amp at 200 wpc @ 8 ohms and 400 wpc @ 4 ohms. It retails at about $2500. Krell and reviews indicate it is a Class A amp, but I don't know any other details or whether there is a transition. It sounds to inexpensive to be a true pure class A amp though when compared to others.

Does anyone know how well this amp performs and sounds with Vantages and is it a pure class A amp?

Brad

Brad,

The Tweeter I go (well used to go to) has Vantages/Vistas and the Krell 400xi. It's an integrated amp (if I am not mistaken) and it did fine despite the very poor setup for the Vantages.

IMO, you could take the ~$3000 on that Krell and take a crack at some used gear on audiogon and see if you can get something better (or maybe a better preamp/amp) combo. Maybe your tastes demand a tube preamp? Who knows?

Erik

 

[Gordon Gray]

Serious music listening?

Dear Robin,

Can you please explain to me the difference between "serious" listening with a 2 channel system, versus a 5.1 system, within the context of tube versus SS amps? One would think / hope that they are somewhat interchangeable, with all things being equal and the desired goal being accurate audio reproduction.

GG

 

[twich54]

The Krell KAV-400xi is a class A amp at 200 wpc @ 8 ohms and 400 wpc @ 4 ohms. It retails at about $2500. Krell and reviews indicate it is a Class A amp,Brad

Brad, It's circuitry is Class A only up to the output stage at which point it operates in Class B, yet it's poor heat sink design would have you believe it to be a 'Pure' Class A amp, which it is NOT.

I did have a brief listening experience with it at a 'Tweeter', afterwhich I had to take some IMODIUM !!

 

[Caerus]

Dave,

Thanks for the input. That transition to the output stage had me wondering. I also listened to the Krell KAV-400xi at Tweeters with Vantages (and Krell Standard SACD) and I thought that it was not any better than my Rotel RB-1080 and RCD-1072. So I take it the Imodium is an indicator that the aforementioned Krell equipment is a NO-GO.

Erik,

Your advice sounds good to look at other alternatives. Thanks for the input and I am still developing my “taste” as I go and not trying to make any big expensive mistakes as I go.

Brad

 

[edwinr]

While I reckon the Summits will run with 50 watts - or even less at a push - I don't think they will realise their potential unless they are driven by some substantial amplification. Rich's comment about their sensitivity being 92 db and NOT 100 db hits the nail right on the head. 92 db for 1 watt is not particularly sensitive and the 1 ohm minimum impedance must tax many lessor amplifiers.

So yeah, you will get failrly reasonable sound from the Summits with lessor amplifiers, but it's not until they're driven by something special that they assume a different persona.

I guess we should be grateful that ML produced a high end speaker that doesn't require an 'immediate' amplifier upgrade. But upgrade you must if you want to hear what the Summits can do...

 

[twich54]

So I take it the Imodium is an indicator that the aforementioned Krell equipment is a NO-GO.Brad

Brad, Good morning, while the Krell has many positives it's not 'my cup of tea', inadequte heat sinks, Class B output devices, and given it's $2500 price tag, that in my book would be better spent in the area of seperates where flexibility is a factor. I'm sure the unit has many satisfied owners though.

 

[Robin]

Music Listening vs HT Sound Effects...

Dear Robin,

Can you please explain to me the difference between "serious" listening with a 2 channel system, versus a 5.1 system, within the context of tube versus SS amps? One would think / hope that they are somewhat interchangeable, with all things being equal and the desired goal being accurate audio reproduction.

GG

Gordon,

From what I have observed music listening exclusively is not the same as HT listening. Music listing from sources such as ~ CD/SACD, Phono, Tape, iPod, iTunes, Slim Device Transporter are from source matterial from less dynamic sonic images. IMHO, Music using tubes provides smoother sound than SS transitors. I believe it is because tubes are slower giving more texter, microdymanics and timber to the music, which the SS transistor amplifiers do not give (at least the SS amps I have listened to). I am not a techical person. It is explained technically better in these articles:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccum_tube



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_sound



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_recording_and_reproduction



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_amplifier


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_%28audio%29



Where as sources such as DVD HD-DVD and Blue-Ray have sound tracks, which as I said before are produce differently than music softwear. The dynamics are much different. I'll give you an example, organ music can dip down to 40Hz on a CD/SACD, tubes can follow making the sound prettier than SS, IMHO, for my ears.

On DVD, HD-DVD, Blue-Ray soundtracks the sound engineers can adjust the sound effects of a Space Monster machine crushing a building, in "War of the Worlds" to go down to 15Hz or lower... and in the next second a high pitched whine at 30KHz. You see what I mean, how SS is better able to quickly adjust and adapt, reproducing the sound in greater detail and more accurately. This is what I have found anyway.

HTH

 

[risabet]

their sensitivity being 92 db and NOT 100 db hits the nail right on the head. 92 db for 1 watt is not particularly sensitive and the 1 ohm minimum impedance must tax many lessor amplifiers.

The average speaker is right around 87dB efficiency so if the Summit is around 92dB then it is in the upper range for efficiency. No, it isn't SET compatible but a high quality 50 watt tubed unit should be more than adequate given realistic levels and room size. That being said I don't think you can have too much power so 100 watts of glowing bottle power is good. 200 watts, ATBE, is better.

The impedance dip is low but it occurs where there is very little musical energy and so isn't as important as it seems on its face, though I wouldn't necessarily hook up a Sansui receiver and try to drive the Summits

 

[Gordon Gray]

Thank you Robin!

Hi Robin,

I sincerely appreciate your response. I have always been intrigued by the different "venues" of reproduced musical listening experiences. Perhaps, I'm part of the older generation that grew up listening to two channel audio and have always considered 5.1 to be a somewhat compelling but, by design, subject to electronic manipulation, in the hands of those that have never experienced the magic of live, unamplified music.

For background, I have a separate 5.1 system consisting of a Denon receiver (8 years old but sounds just fine to me) , Sony DVD player, B &W M-1 surround speakers, Polk Audio woof, etc. I have and hopefully will continue to allocate my resources to my 2 channel system because it conveys the heart and soul of music and not some artifact thereof. I've never used my ML's within the context of a 5.1 system. Thank you again for the links provided in your post and I look forward to reading the information provided.

Best regards,

Gordon

 

[Robin]

Excellent Additional Technical Information...

Gordon,

I have read many of the the tube amplifier designers and the SS amplifier designers "White Papers" regarding just what they expect from their electronic designs and why... It is very interesting how these great amplifier designers go for a 'sound' or the ability of their designs to achieve / reproduce sounds. They have all designed amplifiers for just tube amps music or SS amps for HT huge sound dynamics. The differences between tube and SS amps are many some are referred to in the listed links below. I have listed the links below (the first one is a white paper Dan Wright of ModWright ~ recommended of Shakti Technology) the rest are from Bob Carver of Sunfire and Nelson Pass of Pass Labs. Enjoy...



http://www.shakti-innovations.com/shaktiwhitepaper.htm



http://www.sunfire.com/pdf/Sunfire_Amplifier_Whitepaper.pdf



http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/articles/cascode.pdf



As I am sure you will agree these tube / SS electronic engineers are preeminent in the Hi-Fi audio field.

 

[Rich]

No, it isn't SET compatible but a high quality 50 watt tubed unit should be more than adequate given realistic levels and room size. That being said I don't think you can have too much power so 100 watts of glowing bottle power is good. 200 watts, ATBE, is better.

Agreed. And in my opinion, especially if you decide to go with a solid state amp instead of tubes, more power is better. What works the best for each person will depend on type of music, listening levels, size of room, system synergy and personal taste.

I like the sound of my CJ 140 tube amp better in some respects than my Pass Labs X-350.5, but in my large room on dynamic music played loudly, the CJ can run out of steam. The Pass has yet to do so and it sounds marvelous on the Summits.

The point I really wanted to make was that it is dangerous to say this or that is the "best" with Summits (or any other speaker) because what is best will vary with each individual and their setup and personal needs and tastes. I think many tube amps are marvelous with the Summits, but I don't fall into the camp that believes high wattage solid state amps are a waste of money with this speaker. They simply provide a different type of sound which is appropriate and enjoyable to many people.

 

[liljackiepaper]

Does anyone have an opinion on Wolcott Monoblocks...

...to drive Summits? Is this overkill? I've got a big room (35 x 18 with 12 foot ceiling) and my Summits will be part of a 5.1 Theatre. I'm going to drive the center and rears using a 3-channel solid state but am still trying to figure out how I'm going to drive the big boys in front for both cds (mostly acoustic stuff) and movies (mostly loud and bass-y).

A friend tells me that the Wolcott monos were all but designed for electrostats but I'm wondering if they're really necessary for the Summits because of the built-in powered woofer. Seems to me that that's more true for pure stats like Soundlabs or Maggies.

Frankly, I would SAVE money if I just got a Pass Labs x350.5 or found some other cheaper tube alternative. Maybe a McIntosh (but which one?).

Any suggestions/advice would be helpful. Thanks.

 

[stesom]

I decided to go with the Ayre MR-X Monos

See my post in this forum.......Steve

 

[babydoc]

Amplifiers for Summits

I have been using a Pass X350.5 for my Summits since I bought them. There is no issue with power limitations. I agree with the majority that is some is good, some more is better when it comes to amplifier headroom.
Given the resolving capacity of ESLs, it is critical to have a front end that does not get in the way of whatever source is being used for listening. Almost all equipment has a "voice" that is determined by the manufacturer. The voicing is done with reference equipment and is determined subjectively once the basics of the design are completed.
An important consideration in purchasing amplifiers is stability into loads that can go down as far as 1 Ohm. Another is reliability of design and manufacture. Those considerations were paramount in my decision to go with Pass equipment in addition to the fact that they passed source information through reasonably transparently.
I have had tube amplifiers (several) in the past. While they mostly sound very good to excellent, tubes have some anomalies that develop over time as the tubes age. Solid state equipment may not be pleasing to all ears but in my experience it is much more consistent on a day-to-day basis.