Conrad Johnson premier 14 Pre

[MiTT]

I'm sorry Sunday, I'm still not following you.

I have a number of speaker cables here - Synergistic, Tara, AudioQuest and plain jain Monster. None of them have polarity indicated on the cable itself. The Synergistics and Tara's are directional, but they are terminated blue and black or red and black, or there is a white stripe running the length of the cable, but none of them indicate polarity.

So what I'm saying is that if I take any cable and connect one to the + terminal on my amp and one to the - terminal on my amp regardless of the color/indication etc. on that cable I then either connect the one from the + terminal on my amp to the + terminal on my speaker and the same for the - terminals from amp to speaker to be wired in the same phase as my amp. If I want to invert phase between my amp and speakers I only have to swap the cables at the speaker end.

Are we saying the same thing?

The only cables that might have polarity sensitivity that I can think of might be the Transparents or similar that route through a network box, but I really can't say since I'm not familiar with them.

 

[SundayNiagara]

I'm sorry Sunday, I'm still not following you.

I have a number of speaker cables here - Synergistic, Tara, AudioQuest and plain jain Monster. None of them have polarity indicated on the cable itself. The Synergistics and Tara's are directional, but they are terminated blue and black or red and black, or there is a white stripe running the length of the cable, but none of them indicate polarity.

So what I'm saying is that if I take any cable and connect one to the + terminal on my amp and one to the - terminal on my amp regardless of the color/indication etc. on that cable I then either connect the one from the + terminal on my amp to the + terminal on my speaker and the same for the - terminals from amp to speaker to be wired in the same phase as my amp. If I want to invert phase between my amp and speakers I only have to swap the cables at the speaker end.

Are we saying the same thing?

The only cables that might have polarity sensitivity that I can think of might be the Transparents or similar that route through a network box, but I really can't say since I'm not familiar with them.

Do whatever you like. My idea makes sense to me.

 

[lonergan2468]

Ok, Guys, many thanks. My conrad is in place. I inverted the speaker cables at the speaker end, and sounds good. In fact I did not invert to begin with, and now the sound is more open. I will try the advice and change to using it at the amp end (inversion) and see what happens. With the CJ 14 Prem and the Krell power amp, this is a different ball game over the awful Audiolabs.

 

[tonepub]

this is very interesting TonePub maybe you could elaborate further about why this is if you have any more info on this

Here's the reasoning behind absolute phase....

If you were to look at the music waveform when you hit any kind of transient (drum crash, etc) the speakers should move out at that moment. If your system is out of absolute phase, the speakers will move in at the moment of transient attack. That's what gives you a slightly more open, powerful sound when absolute phase is correct.

Don't confuse this with your speakers being in phase with each other.

If your speakers are out of phase with each other, one will be moving out while the other is moving in, giving cancellations at various frequencies. If you've accidentally hooked your speakers out of phase (to each other) you usually get much less bass response.

The difference between correct absolute phase and incorrect is usually noticeable, but minimal.

Make sense?

PS: MiTT you are correct. Your speakers don't care which wire you use as + or -, as long as you are consistent with both speakers. Some are marked red and black on the ends for convenience. My Shunyata
cables are marked white and red. Also, keeping red as + will just make it easier for you to keep track of
absolute phase....

 

[amey01]

Most CJ gear inverts the phase. It is an easy thing to fix. If you have an odd number of phase inversions in your system all you need to do is swap the "+" "-" connection at the speaker. IE hook the - lead to the + post and the + lead to the - post of the speaker. This will correct the inverted phasing. If you have an even number of phase inversions in your system you do not need to do anything. Just wire as normal.

What I ffind is when the phase is inverted everything sounds out of focus.

This really has me confused too. If a bit of kit inverts phase (I understand why this might happen so as to reduce gain stages) then why the heck don't they just make the wiring changes at the back plate and keep things simple for the rest of us???????

 

[Cherian]

A great question. I have often wondered this myself. My guess is to keep things as factual as possible.

This really has me confused too. If a bit of kit inverts phase (I understand why this might happen so as to reduce gain stages) then why the heck don't they just make the wiring changes at the back plate and keep things simple for the rest of us???????

 

[SundayNiagara]

"PS: MiTT you are correct. Your speakers don't care which wire you use as + or -, as long as you are consistent with both speakers. Some are marked red and black on the ends for convenience. My Shunyata
cables are marked white and red. Also, keeping red as + will just make it easier for you to keep track of
absolute phase.... "

And here folks, we have what amounts to be the final word on this subject...NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[tonepub]

Because some mfrs use even numbers of gain stages and some odd...

Adding a phase inverter to the mix makes the circuit more complex.

 

[User211]

Ladies & Gentleman - I am not at all convinced. Not in the logic - that's fine, but that you can hear a difference.

My old Audio Synthesis DAX-2 had a phase invert switch. 1st time I pressed it, a red light came on. No audible difference. Pressed it again. No audible difference.

Revisted it on a few occasions. My conclusion was purely that that the light was quite bright, and that it was best left off.

Someone is pulling my willy with that button, I thought.

Just my experience...

That's a brilliant test, IMHO, because it is instant. No messing with leads etc and therefore a big delay. If someone could reliably detect the position it was in blindfolded, I'd be incredibly impressed. And I'd bet serious £££$$$ no one could - at least in the context of my system. Higher resolution ones - possibly... I just don't know. There isn't much I have heard in terms of resolution that beats ML panels, though.

 

[tonepub]

As I said, it's pretty slight.

Interesting as to most of this is defined in whether you percieve a diff or not. Perhaps your hearing is starting to become a bit knackered....

 

[User211]

That's possible, but that DAX-2 test was years ago... also, I can muster 14K, which isn't terrible, and when I have had my 2 yearly de-wax I'l expect more. Whether I get it or not is another question. But then I could only ever hear 16K anyway when I was 15-16, so I don't expect much more.

Anyway, I didn't see you post your results Jeff, and you are over 50... and you've been to loads of live gigs It won't be what it used to be.

The reason CJ don't care is the effect is zilsch. Otherwise they'd do what Adam said. Perhaps that's pretentious on my part, but I think it is basically true.

It's easy to convince yourself you can gear things you can't, after all. I'm sure I do it.

 

[tonepub]

have worn earplugs since teenage days, whether going to concerts or mowing the lawn. Got em checked about two months ago and can still hear up to 19k..

I've always been extremely careful with my ears. Got called a nerd a lot wearing earplugs back in the day, but it's paid off....

 

[MiTT]

Ladies & Gentleman - I am not at all convinced. Not in the logic - that's fine, but that you can hear a difference.

Yeah, I can believe that too Justin. My preamp can invert phase from the remote. I can usually hear a difference when I'm concentrating on it and switching back and forth, but I doubt I'd hear much of a difference if I were moving cables back and forth.

Should any of you do it just remember to switch your system OFF before you start swapping cables around. One little slip could turn your amp into an arc welder.

 

[User211]

It is a difficult one - if I am completely honest there where occasions when I thought I might have detected a difference but if I really did I rejected it. I have some of Ethan's blood in me, not much, but just a tinsy dose. It was a case of "don't be ridiculous, there's no way you can hear that!".

This is good stuff, though. Here's why...

I used to own a Mod Squad passive pre, which I noticed just popped up as a review classic on the 'Pile. That was a great sounding piece of kit, but it had one flaw - not through any fault of it's own. It used some really great pots, not the Alps wiper type that some reviewers claim as great, but basically go noisy after a while and whose wipers need a good clean, but some plastic type.

Good though they were, as soon as you used the balance control, you could blantantly hear a decrease in sound quality. In the balanced position, it was "disengaged". But as soon as you moved it, it became "in circuit". Before you could detect a change in balance, you could hear the deterioration. Most balance controls do not work like this i.e. they are permanently in circuit. DIYers may choose to remove them quite simply by taking them out of circuit - quite easy to do.

The resistor ladder volume pots you can buy on ebay and used by some high end amps are probably a very good idea. But you end up loosing fine volume control and because they "switch" they may get pretty noisy after a while.

The point is, sometimes you get a big surprise in this hobby. Things you expect to make no difference sometimes do. And the effect is so noticeable that you can't deny it, even though logic says you should.

My AirTight passive pre has no balance control and a $1000 pot upgrade - one of the reasons I liked it. Good, until the inevitable ML panel imbalance comes into play when they get older. In which case, it's time for a new set anyway.

Keep the component count low and the circuits simple, something I strongly believe in based on my own experience. This is one of the reasons I reject room EQ, graphic equalisers, and digital processing of any kind in-circuit where it can be avoided.

At it's lowest level, digital IS analogue. It's just been broken up into square(ish) waves, and that ain't natural.

 

[MiTT]

Keep the component count low and the circuits simple, something I strongly believe in based on my own experience. This is one of the reasons I reject room EQ, graphic equalisers, and digital processing of any kind in-circuit where it can be avoided.

At it's lowest level, digital IS analogue. It's just been broken up into square(ish) waves, and that ain't natural.

I am in exactly the same camp Justin.

Last year I tried VERY HARD to like a Lyndorf digital room correction system I'd brought home to audition after RMAF. It made a dramatic difference in my system when I inserted it, but not in a musical or natural way to my ears. Everything became more etched. The fullness and bloom of specific instruments in orchestral settings particularly dissappeared and the soundstage became entirely flat, as if I was listening to an orchestra drawn on a pane of glass.

The whole DRC thing is not for me I'm afraid, at least not right now and not in my current (very small) room.

 

[User211]

Well described about the Lyndorf kit - I have heard their stuff too with RC in place, and it doesn't sound natural to me. Quite glassy and hard and a very processed feel to it. But at the end of the day - that's because IT IS processed

 

[FISH_MAN]

Here's the reasoning behind absolute phase....

If you were to look at the music waveform when you hit any kind of transient (drum crash, etc) the speakers should move out at that moment. If your system is out of absolute phase, the speakers will move in at the moment of transient attack. That's what gives you a slightly more open, powerful sound when absolute phase is correct.

Don't confuse this with your speakers being in phase with each other.

If your speakers are out of phase with each other, one will be moving out while the other is moving in, giving cancellations at various frequencies. If you've accidentally hooked your speakers out of phase (to each other) you usually get much less bass response.

The difference between correct absolute phase and incorrect is usually noticeable, but minimal.

Make sense?

QUOTE]

that's what I thought thanks TonePub

 

[lonergan2468]

I hooked up the conrad Premier 14, and did not invert phase and played for a while then I changed the leads to the speakers around RED to BLACK etc, and noticed a change and an improvement. Only thing is, and this cannot be related to the CJ my Krell amp went off when I raised volume on a Pat Metheney track on secret story. Did not raise it to any excessive level but I could not turn the amp on again, looks like the on switch is tripping as I can see a quick spark of light when attempting to switch it on. I hope that this is just something minor. I am now using my sons Nad power amp in the interim, and I must say this £500.00 power amp is impressive.