Conclusions and Confusions: Not just another "Which Amplifier" thread...

[adanny]

The C2 is an excellent sounding processor and will be a good match for the Aragon Palladiums which are similar in performance to the JC 1s at a lot less $$. You could take the $$ saved and buy the Halo preamp (I think it's called P3) which is very highly regarded and could make a great addition used in bypass mode. What people are saying is correct, the Summits really are deserving of top notch electronics and sound best with the least amount of manipulation of signal.

Very helpful advice. In particular, I am going to upgrade the music player. Currently, I have a 7 yr old Yamaha univeral CD player but do all my listening, frankly, through Sonos (Digital out; using DACs of the Halo C2). I really dont want to buy a CD player because I am hooked to the Sonos. In fact, other than the ML's, the Sonos has made me listen to and be passionate about music again :music:

But I am going to test the Cullen-modified Sonos player to try an dimprove the upstream signal

 

[adanny]

Another fine amp to consider is the McIntosh MC303. Here is a brief write up from Mc:

At 300 watts per channel the new McIntosh MC303 Three Channel Power Amplifier with Autoformers delivers its maximum rated output power into 2, 4, or 8 ohm loads for the lowest noise and distortion performance possible. Premium cosmetics featuring a ½” thick glass faceplate, custom machined and anodized aluminum handles, and a mirror polished stainless steel chassis are standard equipment on the MC303. Power Guard, a McIntosh circuit innovation, maximizes sound quality at high power levels while our Sentry Monitor feature provides continuous short circuit protection of the amplifier and connected loudspeakers. A triple bank of Peak Reading Watt Meters provides instant recognition of power output and may be switched off for theater use.

I believe this is the first McIntosh multi-channel amp that includes autoformers, which has a lot to do with their sound. You owe it to yourself to check it out. If you can't find an MC303 at least give a listen to the MC252. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

I have heard McIntosh with MLs - they were amazing! Hard to pinpoint how much was the Mac and how much the ML magic but they were astounding.

is this a sub-5k or 5k-plus amp? Not sure I am convinced about spending more than $5k on the amp upgrade, with a focus on 3-awesome channels and a compromise on the back 4.

 

[adanny]

No Theta?

Looks like Theta Dreadnaught II is underrepresented here? I loved it when I heard it with prodigees. Plus, the flexibility of having it configured as 3 x 225 and 4 x 100 is very cool (although secondary to sound quality). Have seen pictures of it routinely used at CEDIA and other listening sessions, with MLs, Maggies and Revels. Plus Stereophile and Absolute Sound love them

Surprised to find few advocates here...

 

[taylode]

I have heard McIntosh with MLs - they were amazing! Hard to pinpoint how much was the Mac and how much the ML magic but they were astounding.

is this a sub-5k or 5k-plus amp? Not sure I am convinced about spending more than $5k on the amp upgrade, with a focus on 3-awesome channels and a compromise on the back 4.

Sorry, I missed the $5K limit. It will absolutely be greater than $5K -- probably closer to $10K.

 

[adanny]

One other question. I am redecorating the room and putting in a projector. That will necessitate running in-wall wiring to the 2 front ML Summits and Stage (they are currently running on bi-wired Tala Labs Helix 8 cables) and the subwoofer.

What in-wall cable should i get so actually and psychologically i see no degradation of signal? Understand that 99% of people feel bi-wiring is unnecessary and I not a huge believer one way or another. My dealer had these bi-wired and I literally bought the cables he was using to take the guesswork out. How have others done internal wiring and what is your belief on quality of signal?

 

[adanny]

One other question. I am redecorating the room and putting in a projector. That will necessitate running in-wall wiring to the 2 front ML Summits and Stage (they are currently running on bi-wired Tala Labs Helix 8 cables) and the subwoofer.

What in-wall cable should i get so actually and psychologically i see no degradation of signal? Understand that 99% of people feel bi-wiring is unnecessary and I not a huge believer one way or another. My dealer had these bi-wired and I literally bought the cables he was using to take the guesswork out. How have others done internal wiring and what is your belief on quality of signal?

any suggestions on in-wall wiring? Thanks

 

[JonFo]

Hi Adanny,

I'd recommend using plenum rated cable for any in-wall runs. It might even be required by code in your area, worth looking into.

I just rewired my little system with >300' worth of BlueJeansCable plenum-rated Belden cable.

The Belden 5000 10 gauge should be all you need to run the speakers.

As for bi-wiring, I'd say skip it unless you also plan to bi-amp at some point.

Especially on long runs, bi-wiring is just another opportunity to increase capacitance in the hook-up.

But if you ever plan to bi-amp, and I highly recommend that, then do run two sets of wires to each (L/R) speaker.

 

[adanny]

Hi Adanny,

I'd recommend using plenum rated cable for any in-wall runs. It might even be required by code in your area, worth looking into.

I just rewired my little system with >300' worth of BlueJeansCable plenum-rated Belden cable.

The Belden 5000 10 gauge should be all you need to run the speakers.

As for bi-wiring, I'd say skip it unless you also plan to bi-amp at some point.

Especially on long runs, bi-wiring is just another opportunity to increase capacitance in the hook-up.

But if you ever plan to bi-amp, and I highly recommend that, then do run two sets of wires to each (L/R) speaker.

Thanks Jonathan. Since the Summits have their own powered woofers, is their still benefit in bi-amping? Would you be bi-amping just for the mid- and high- ranges?

 

[Cherian]

You cannot bi-amp the ML Summit. Because the woofers are powered bi-amping is a waste. In internal crossover of the Summits would just use the speaker level signal and attenuate it, and then feed it to its internal amp.

 

[DrJRapp]

I'd recommend using plenum rated cable for any in-wall runs. It might even be required by code in your area, worth looking into.

Plenum rated cable is only required in fire rated assemblies which are not generally found in single family residences, but may be found separating dwelling units in duplexes and other multi-family structures.

If there is no requirement for it don't spend the money for it.

 

[FISH_MAN]

Plenum rated cable is only required in fire rated assemblies which are not generally found in single family residences, but may be found separating dwelling units in duplexes and other multi-family structures.

If there is no requirement for it don't spend the money for it.

I think I would use the plenum wire inside a wall even if not required as I believe it has extra shielding that helps protect it from damage inside the wall there is nothing worse than having to go back and re do your job later because of a problem

 

[adanny]

I think I would use the plenum wire inside a wall even if not required as I believe it has extra shielding that helps protect it from damage inside the wall there is nothing worse than having to go back and re do your job later because of a problem

I know this is a ridiculously controversial, almost religious, question but here it goes: would a plenum rated, 10-gauge, non bi-wired, Bluejeans cable that runs at something like a $1/foot sound indistinguishable from the ~$20/foot Tara labs Prism Helix 8 bi-wire cables I bought from my dealer (actually, he threw them in with the Summits so it was a no-brainer)?

I am re-wiring and moving the audio equipment about 30 feet from the speakers (to make the room look cooler), so I have to change the Tara Lab cables anyway (they are only 10 feet each). But the speakers sound so effin cool and magical, I am terrified that I will inadvertently change something and lose the magic

Also, I have a choice to either run a 30 foot speaker wire run or a 30 foot balanced interconnect between pre-amp and amp, put the amp next to the speakers and just run a 5 foot speaker cable. Any views on whether they will be audibly indistinguishable or not?

 

[Rich]

I know this is a ridiculously controversial, almost religious, question but here it goes: would a plenum rated, 10-gauge, non bi-wired, Bluejeans cable that runs at something like a $1/foot sound indistinguishable from the ~$20/foot Tara labs Prism Helix 8 bi-wire cables I bought from my dealer (actually, he threw them in with the Summits so it was a no-brainer)?

Only you can answer this question. Some will tell you that the difference will be huge; others will swear that any difference you hear will be solely in your head. Only you can decide for yourself. Personally, I would think you will hurt your sound by making this change, but I suggest you do an experiment to verify for yourself before going this route. Buy some inexpensive 10 gauge speaker wire and switch it out with your Tara Labs cable and see what the difference is. That will give you an idea.

I am re-wiring and moving the audio equipment about 30 feet from the speakers (to make the room look cooler), so I have to change the Tara Lab cables anyway (they are only 10 feet each). But the speakers sound so effin cool and magical, I am terrified that I will inadvertently change something and lose the magic

No question in my mind that you will lose the magic by going from 10 foot Tara labs cables to 30 foot blue jeans cables. But that is just my opinion.

Also, I have a choice to either run a 30 foot speaker wire run or a 30 foot balanced interconnect between pre-amp and amp, put the amp next to the speakers and just run a 5 foot speaker cable. Any views on whether they will be audibly indistinguishable or not?

I think it is pretty well accepted that running a longer balanced interconnect between amp and preamp is preferable to running a longer speaker wire between amp and speakers. A balanced interconnect is just going to introduce less noise into the signal than a speaker wire over that distance.

 

[DrJRapp]

I think I would use the plenum wire inside a wall even if not required as I believe it has extra shielding that helps protect it from damage inside the wall there is nothing worse than having to go back and re do your job later because of a problem

It depends on the individual wire. Plenum rating just means that the plastic insulation won't emit toxic fumes when it burns. The name plenum rating comes from it's approval for use in open ceiling spaces (plenums) that are used as the common return of a heating and air conditioning system. The concept is a builing/fire/smoke rating concept not an audio concept whereas any non-metalic covered electrical wire used in a a/c plenum must be constructed in such a manner as to not deliver toxic fumes into the HVAC return if and when it catches fire. The rating itself doesn't imply or guarantee any sheilding, that's up to the individual wire spec. Quite often the fire rating requirements of the wire will actually have a negative effect on an audio signal due to the characteristics (dielectric) of the insulation being optimized for low toxicity, not low conductivity. Often plenum rated cable's insulation is thinner than regular cable to minimize the amount of combustable material. It's a matter of having to serve too many masters at the same time, and audio performance must give way to fire performance.

Using plenum rated cable where it isn't required by building code is a total waste of money. Plenum rated cable generally costs 3 times what regular cable does. If you are looking for protection inside a wall, run the wire in metal conduit.

 

[MiTT]

You are 100% correct sir in your definition of Plenum Rated Cable. I've just gone through an exercise getting some of our recessed fixtures certified for both Chicago Plenum and standard Plenum (including air return and air handling) applications, and your explaination exactly mirrors my recent experience.

 

[JonFo]

...

I think it is pretty well accepted that running a longer balanced interconnect between amp and preamp is preferable to running a longer speaker wire between amp and speakers. A balanced interconnect is just going to introduce less noise into the signal than a speaker wire over that distance.

I'd agree with that statement completely.

However, on the audibility of speaker wire, I'm a lot more skeptical.

Some wire is audibly different, but it is often due to added impedance (resistance) or capacitance.

Off the top of my head I don't recall if helix stranded wire increases the capacitance, but if it does, it will sound different because you just turned your speaker cable to the ESL into a low-pass filter.

If I recall, the ideal topology for feeding the ESL panel is specific type of Coax cable. Yes, Coax; seems a specific model has very low capacitance.
The Sanders electrostatic speaker cable uses that type of wire.

As for plenum vs non, I’ve never read about a measurable negative effect of plenum rated cable.

I can assure you that in my setup, it’s quite transparent, and I do a lot of objective measuring on my rig.

 

[adanny]

Guys - thanks so much for such good and balanced advice. This is why I have found this community to be so much more helpful and fun than AVS forum - sort of like driving on a beautiful Tuscan country road versus on a crowded, irate highway

Not sure if the Tara labs cable adds conductance. here is the description:
...
CONSTRUCTION
• 10 gauge conductor group (4+/4-.)
• SA-OF8N® copper.
• Helixed Array™ solid core conductors.
• SVPE™ primary dielectric.

CHARACTERISTICS
• Improved coherency and musical accuracy.
• Dynamic, musical and neutral.
• Full, articulate and powerful bass.
• Natural mid-range and extended, clear highs.

...

I found a place on the net that is selling unterminated Tara Labs cable for $5/foot. I am now thinking that I will just get that. Risk might be that it is unlikely to be in-wall rated. At least it will be identical to my current Tara cable (except 30 feet long versus currently 10 feet)

Also, since I am getting this professionally installed, is it ok to have wall plates for a clean finish or is that another touch point for noise?

thanks
adanny

 

[adanny]

Passlabs 350 versus 350.5, for the Pass Mafia...

Hi folks

The passlabs 350 is available on agon for under $3k versus more than twice as much for the 350.5. I read as much as I could search from the old threads (e.g. lots of Rich reviews of Pass, sunfire etc.) but couldnt find where someone had heard or analyzed the sonic differences between an x350 versus and x350.5 on MLs? The general reviews appear to indicate that the x350.5 was a real step up, especially on Bass. 2x overall noise reduction etc.

But the original was already SOO good - is the new one materially better? The a-gon price is tempting...

thanks for the input

 

[MiTT]

I think it will depend completely on the resolution of the rest of your system. You may hear great differences if you have a highly resolving system, or you may hear absolutely no difference if the components upstream can't deliver the goods. Both are great amps to be sure, but you just have to ask yourself "is everything else in the chain up to snuff?" Remember that EVERYTHING matters, but only in the context of the synergistic whole.

 

[adanny]

I think it will depend completely on the resolution of the rest of your system. You may hear great differences if you have a highly resolving system, or you may hear absolutely no difference if the components upstream can't deliver the goods. Both are great amps to be sure, but you just have to ask yourself "is everything else in the chain up to snuff?" Remember that EVERYTHING matters, but only in the context of the synergistic whole.

The upstream stuff is decent - and sounds terrific today. That said, it is not a tenth of what many of the audiophiles here have. :bowdown:

I have a Parasound Halo C2 processor, and am adding an external DAC-cum-2 channel pre likely from Tube Audio Designs (TADAC) - which I have heard great things about. Music source is Sonos (I have basically thrown away my CD player), using the DACs in the Parasound or (soon) the TADAC. Cables are all slightly-better-than-entry-level Acoustic research and Tara Labs i.e. not the heavy stuff. No vinyl, no dedicated CD player and no intention to add. Only thing I want to add is the external DAC/2-channel pre and a new amp with more watts (because speakers are in a 7000 cubic foot room family room, completely open on two sides to 2 other 7000 cubic foot rooms).

What i am hearing you imply is that with my system, not only does it not matter whether I get the x350 or x350.5 but I am likely overthinking it and likely dont even need to upgrade from my current B&K7270 (200x x 7)...