CLS depth. Xover, pre-amp and processor. oh my.

[roberto]

When you listen a CLSs, because you are used to listen a lot of bass energy in your room, most people say, they are bass shy. But, have you ever had a chance to listen a contra-bass being played in your music room?...I had. The natural resonance of this instrument is so big and full, robust and tons of nuance and delicate notes. If you apply too much bass energy in your room, you loose the image. Also, there are a lot of lower mid range and upper bass sound than strictly lower notes. And the deepest notes are around 50 to 55Hz, the lowest note, an E, produced a reading around 40Hz, but was not doing too good at the instrument, was difficult for it to reproduce this very low note...how I did measure this? Very easy, with the aid of a frequency counter and a mic. Now, this is in my room, a very small room too. (4meterX4.5m). Now I am playing my CLSs full range, with no crossover at all, and I have my sub cut on its own crossover around 50Hz. Usually the crossover is -12dB/octave, then the blend with my CLSs is just fine, and I can not listen this blend. The level of my sub is very low too. I listen to a good recording and I start from O of volume at the sub, and start to bring the level in a such point where I listen this very low fundamental, but having the musician playing at the stage. If I bring the level too high, I have the musician playing next to my chair and not at the stage...this is my liking, and I do trust my ears for this experiment...try it, you might like it as much as I do!!! happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[DTB300]

Now I am playing my CLSs full range, with no crossover at all, and I have my sub cut on its own crossover around 50Hz. Usually the crossover is -12dB/octave.....

I have found in my room and my tastes an 18dB/octave slope and 90 degree phase works best.

Zaphod, with enough room gain the CLS can produce great bass.

With "proper integration" a Sub can really improve the sound of the CLS.

Proper integration = Placement, Room Treatments, and Bass EQ.

 

[zaphod]

The way I have my system setup now which gives me the best and more realistic bass reproduction is to run it from the secondary preamp outputs from my preamp to my sub. I believe I have the Depth set at 45db so it only engages when necessary.

hey Jeff,

my pre with HTbypass also has multiple lineouts. are you saying that you run the CLS with no filtering at all - ie: full range - and the subs run off the secondary lineouts "parallel" to the CLS ... the subs giving fill to the CLS on only the 45 and lower Hz, but the CLS still doing 45 and down as well?

interesting...

 

[DTB300]

are you saying that you run the CLS with no filtering at all - ie: full range - and the subs run off the secondary lineouts "parallel" to the CLS ... the subs giving fill to the CLS on only the 45 and lower Hz, but the CLS still doing 45 and down as well?

Jeff and I run the same way - full range CLS w/Sub. I have tried both with Xover for CLS and Full Range, and I prefer Full Range. The only difference between us is I use an Bass EQ system in front of my Sub.

 

[Brad225]

Zaphod, I run my CLS's with a pair of Depth i's.

For connections I run speaker cables from my amps to both CLS and Depth. My feeling (and others may not agree) I would rather send the same signal to both speakers rather than preamp to one and amp to the other. Have I done scientific testing of my approach? No it's just a personal choice.

I also run them full range with the Depth starting at 45Hz and it blends very well to my ears.

As for using subs with the CLS's I have found that it strengthens and clears up the mid bass quite noticeably. I have the gain on my subs set quite low so as to just strengthen the bass.
I am sure many would say my system is bass shy still but for me most systems I have listened to have to pronounced a low end but it is obviously a personal thing.

I am curious how you end up integrating the HT with your Depth. I have been curious how you can use two different sets of connections on the sub from different amps and not back feed the other amp.

I currently use a pair Outlaw Audio subs for HT and would like to use my Depth's instead if the really can be connected from different sources. As for the volume difference between 2 channel and HT with one sub I think I could just change the volume on the Velodyne Digital Drive I currently use for to make up for the very low volume I use with 2 channel.

At this time when I switch to HT I change the speaker cables to the CLS's. I just haven't been able to bring myself to run my Ref 3 in bypass and use my VTM200's for front L & R and burn up tube time for TV though.

Please keep us updated how you work through your though process.

A year with our my CLS's would be really difficult you're a better man than I.

 

[zaphod]

Please keep us updated how you work through your though process.

i've been thinking about this a lot and i believe i am heading in one of two directions.

1. the pair of depths will be setup for LFE from the processor, daisy chained as per the manual.
   
   the processor will have the mains defined as small to ensure that the LFE will all go to the depths. the processor mains outs will go into the HT bypass of the preamp.
   
   the CLS will be connected directly to the preamp with no crossover in the mix, that is, i will continue to drive the CLS full range as i have for the past 18 years.
   
   however i will take the secondary preamp outputs and feed them into the crossover which in turn will feed an IB subwoofer under the stairs (about 4500 litres). for the IB i will use the 12" dual coil driver from adire. I put it into a box a few years back, but never really thought that it had enough punch for LFE explosions.
   
   
   so, for movies, i'll have dual depths for LFE and the CLS for front surrounds, with 80Hz and lower removed from the CLS.
   
   for music the CLS will run full range, but with a bit of filling on the bottom end by way of the IB sub.
   
   
2. the second possible arrangement has the movie setup remain the same, that is, the depths daisy chained from the LFE channel, the CLS running as small mains via the preamp set in HTbypass mode.
   
   for music i will still run the CLS full range from the preamp, but instead of running the second preamp outs to the crossover and then on to an IB sub i will run the second preamps to one of the depth's L/R line inputs. i'll then dial that one depth to fill out the bottom end of the music.

this second approach gets rid of the external crossover, and the IB sub. i'll only be using one depth during 2 channel for bottom end filling, but at 21x13, i don't think that the room is not too big for that application.

A year with our my CLS's would be really difficult you're a better man than I.

well, i lived in the last place for 15 years, 1 month, 26 days.... and it had three dedicated listening rooms (only 1 at a time

i'm building this one with everything in mind from the others. my wife has given me pretty much free reign (although she wants it to be enjoyable for just reading or sitting with friends).

so, this will probably be my last listening room. so if i have to leave everything in boxes while i get the planning right.

"no pain, no gain"

 

[JRace]

the processor will have the mains defined as small to ensure that the LFE will all go to the depths. the processor mains outs will go into the HT bypass of the preamp.

the CLS will be connected directly to the preamp with no crossover in the mix, that is, i will continue to drive the CLS full range as i have for the past 18 years.

Wouldn't this send a high-passed signal to the preamp?
If you set the speakers to small then the signal leaving the preouts will be "small'.

 

[zaphod]

Wouldn't this send a high-passed signal to the preamp?
If you set the speakers to small then the signal leaving the preouts will be "small'.

only for HT. audio (CD/lp/reel), will be attached to the preamp and not the processor.

 

[roberto]

only for HT. audio (CD/lp/reel), will be attached to the preamp and not the processor.

Right!...taking off the low frequency info at 80Hz, will make the CLSs to play louder and more dynamic. This array is for HT only. You have to adjust the level of the whole system, with the pink noise of your processor. My system is + 5 dBs on both CLSs and -1dB for the Motif center, and -4dBs to my rear Sonus FAber Electa Amator. Also I use three different amplifiers, for the CLSs an ARC VT-100 MK II, for the center a Perreaux from New Zeland. This center amp is Moss FET and I have it bridged. My rear amplifier is McIntosh 2105...old baby that belonged to my dad. When I listen only Stereo, my CLSs are full range, and the subs that I have are feed with low frequency info and the cut is set around 50Hz. This is my best set up for my system and liking...I wish you a very happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[C.A.P]

Wish I could help. Right now as of the past year I run NO sub with my CLS and find the bass is outstanding in my room., Room has the biggest factor with CLS. I have 3 walls that are 2/3 cement that reinforce it well. I hit 40 hz easily and its real fast and pure. I have subs and have tried them but find them all slow and bloated. I tried a Depth and liked it but still found it Negligible. I get real good comparisons of good bass as I have Kens CLX 10 min away to compare.

Just my .02