Clarity and Vista. What's wrong?

[MrBT]

Hello,

I enjoyed ML Claritys for about two years. Within this time I managed to match my audio components to sound characteristics of my liking. When I purchased Claritys I knew that ML have the sound signature I love. But after a while I figured out that changing Claritys may be a way for improvement. So I bought Vistas.... And here it started again. It looks like I need better amp? Vistas are big disappointment with my system. Compared to Claritys it flattened mids and highs, stereo imaging is not as focused as it used to be and sound in general is kinda muddy and not involving. I only gained at lower registers.
I don't think that Vistas would be that different and certainly should be better sounding. Would my amp be insufficient for Vista and still good for Claritys? Clarity panel is almost 2x smaller than Viasta and electrostats introduce capacitive load to amplifiers, which I assume depends from size of panel. This would make sense. Also my long forgotten Rotel RMB-1075 seems to be "doing its job". But Rotel cheated in this model by installing output inductors. My current amps are DIY, dual monoblock with plenty of power and current reserve. It is design form www.amb.org Beta24 and sound wise it's a few classes above Rotel (at least with Claritys).
Sorry for long post and if you know any hints or have any opinions please share with me.
Thanks

 

[amey01]

Are they run in yet? Also, experiment with position - you can't just plonk them where the Claritys were and
expect good sound.

Amplification is important, but I wouldn't say the Clarity's requirement is verry different to the Vista's requirement. That said, I have found Rotel amps woefully inadequate when driving 'Logans.

The Vista is a wholly better speaker - you'll just have to find out why.

 

[MrBT]

Amey01, I do not know if they are run in completely and so I'll give them some time. Forgetting about how much time I spent positioning Claritys I just placed Vistas and expected them to sound good - my fault. But despite that, "anywhere" placement of Caritys was giving quite different sound characteristic than Vista.

 

[FOUNTAIN]

I agree with Amey that you should try experimenting with different placement. Also, I'm not familiar with the clarity, but if the panel was vertical to the floor on that model and the panel on the vista is tilted back then what you described could probably be improved. I use a level on the panels and adjust them to vertical in relation to the floor and adjust from there. You may want to experiment with toe in during this process. A little movement here or there can really change the sound.

Glen

 

[Tosh]

450Hz crossover point is too high, especially with ported bass. ML knows better, but makes sacrifices for styling. There, I said it!

 

[MrBT]

Thanks for suggestions. I've bought the used speakers with unknown history and it looks like they weren't burn-in. After few hours of playing, things already started improving. I'll give them a few days and than start careful positioning. What I noticed is the "sweet spot" has much bigger tollerance for listener position than Claritys. I started with 2.5ft from side wall, 3ft from back, 6ft speakers separation, 8ft listener distance, no toe-in. Vistas are indeed very different animal than Claritys.

 

[amey01]

One more thing - that Rotel isn't class-D, is it? Personally, I first listened to my Vistas with a Class-D Lyngdorf/TacT and it nearly made me pass the Vistas up - IMHO, Class-D and 'Logans do not mix!

 

[MrBT]

Newer Rotels are class D. The RMB-1075 is class B, as I read somewhere. Like I said before RMB-1075 was doing its job - just.

 

[Irishtom]

I bought Vistas about a month ago and when used with a 85 wpc Denon receiver the rig sounded OK but lacking in depth and "air" and the tonal balance was very lean. Now when used with Altec Model 19s this same amp sounded lively and had excellent depth and image.

So anyway I hooked up a little Jolida 102B, what 20 watts a channel, that I'd used on another set of very sensitive Altecs. The difference was quite dramatic---"Big Tone" and a much more spacious sound. So anyway wanting a little more power and a remote control I bought Jolida 312B-RC, 50 watts a channel, and now I'm in Hog Heaven.

I'm of the opinion now that the Vistas are very sensitive to amplifiers and that matching is more important than with the dynamic speakers I'm familiar with--old school horns by Altec and JBL.

 

[Irishtom]

450Hz crossover point is too high, especially with ported bass. ML knows better, but makes sacrifices for styling. There, I said it!

Vented bass allows less excursion for a given output than a sealed system of a given size and all other things being equal that means less distortion and a clearer midrange. Those cone woofers which IME&O make the best midrange are all woofers meant for use in vented boxes.

 

[Tosh]

Vented bass relies on port resonance for extra bass and also has more excursion than sealed system below the tuning frequency. If one is serious about exploiting the advantages of ported deep bass, one doesn't ask the driver to also play midrange.

 

[Irishtom]

Vented bass relies on port resonance for extra bass and also has more excursion than sealed system below the tuning frequency. If one is serious about exploiting the advantages of ported deep bass, one doesn't ask the driver to also play midrange.

One easily enough avoids playing vented speakers loudly below resonance, I never saw any of my Altecs, EVs or JBLs "run away". It just wasn't a problem even at extreme levels, IME the problem is more theoretical than practical.

Many who are very serious about speakers use vented woofers to play midrange and fairly deep bass, 40hz or so, with excellent results. Their notions may not agree with yours but they're serious.

Subwoofers? You probably have a point but not with woofers. With woofers you're often up against the practical matter that the same big-motored and light coned woofers that make outstanding midrange (and have good sensitivity) are also totally unsuited by their nature for use in sealed boxes. Compromises, you know the story.

 

[MrBT]

Now after a week of listening and tweaking I must say that finally I can sit on my ar$e end totally enjoy. These trully are great speakers and much higher class than calritys. Much more distingiushed and refine. Little bit of patience paid off greatly.
Thank you all for your help.

 

[DrJRapp]

Newer Rotels are class D. The RMB-1075 is class B, as I read somewhere. Like I said before RMB-1075 was doing its job - just.

The 1075 is class A-A/B. It is an adequitely powerful amp, just a bit grainy and rounded on the top end. It was voiced on B&W's with titanium tweets...nuff said.

 

[MickeyVee]

put me in the green with envy category.. I auditioned the Vista's last week with Jeff Rowland electronics.. definitely yummy and a class above the Clarity's. I was wondering how much of the improvement had to do with the electronics over what I'm using. Glad to hear that you find them to be a much higher class. I've spent way too much this year already on my system so I'm not ready to pull the trigger on them yet.

Enjoy!!

 

[FISH_MAN]

put me in the green with envy category.. I auditioned the Vista's last week with Jeff Rowland electronics.. definitely yummy and a class above the Clarity's. I was wondering how much of the improvement had to do with the electronics over what I'm using. Glad to hear that you find them to be a much higher class. I've spent way too much this year already on my system so I'm not ready to pull the trigger on them yet.

Enjoy!!

most was just the speakers the vistas are in a different class