Cables: How Important is Equal Length?

[Speedskater]

Can you recommend a resource or site for an alternate geometry?

Yep! you can skip the math parts.

Ground Loops: The Rest of the Story
Bill Whitlock, AES Fellow and Jamie Fox, P.E.
This paper was presented at the AES 129th Convention, 4-7 November 2010, San Francisco, CA, USA

ABSTRACT
The mechanisms that enable so-called ground loops to cause well-known hum, buzz, and other audio system
noise problems are well known. But what causes power-line related currents to flow in signal cables in the first
place? This paper explains how magnetic induction in ordinary premises AC wiring creates the small voltage
differences normally found among system ground connections, even if “isolated” or “technical” grounding is
used. The theoretical basis is explored, experimental data shown, and an actual case history related. Little
has been written about this “elephant in the room” topic in engineering literature and apparently none in the
context of audio or video systems. It is shown that simply twisting L-N pairs in the premises wiring can
profoundly reduce system noise problems.


http://www.jensen-transformers.com/...est-of-Story-Whitlock-Fox-Generic-Version.pdf

 

[Speedskater]

OK, look. We get it. You don't think that any cables of any type make a difference. Fine. But my experience tells me differently. So please allow us to indulge our own delusions so I can explore my own concerns in my own thread?
Thanks.

Not all cables are good cables! (far from it, but there are engineering reasons as to why)
Not all cables that are OK in one situation will be OK in other situations.

 

[Brad225]

WARNING POLITICAL COMMENT AHEAD. COVER YOUR CHILDREN'S EYES AND EARS AND HIDE SMALL ANIMALS.

that's the best way to plant "alternate facts". You sprinkle in a little bit of reality and try leveraging that to lend credibility to the outright lies.

The same way most liberals speak on any subject.

 

[amey01]

Based on that rationale, there ought not to be any difference between amps, preamp or interconnects, but there is. Sunlight travels billions of miles to get here, so are polarized sunglasses are just marketing hype?

Not a good analogy.

We all use transformers every day. If we didn't use transformers, our equipment would blow up. - sunglasses are like a transformer - they are actually doing something/changing something.

Power cables are not like that - by definition a good one should change nothing.

So is the last metre of hundreds of kilometres of power line going to do anything? Whatever.........

......but one thing.......Anyone who connects big, chunky, expensive power cable into their system - just do me one favour first - at the very leaset, open up your amplifier and have a look at the power cable on the other side of the recepticale. Chances are, it will be some skinny, cheap bit of rubbish.

 

[Hammerhead]

For those of you in the 'cables really do make a difference club', do Frank's Silver Resolution cables have any recommended 'directionality' to them? I'm asking, because the Acoustic Zen Satori cables they're replacing have markings to indicate signal flow from the Amp to the speakers. Or, is this a case of just being consistent and marking them myself?

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[Hammerhead]

WARNING POLITICAL COMMENT AHEAD. COVER YOUR CHILDREN'S EYES AND EARS AND HIDE SMALL ANIMALS.







The same way most liberals speak on any subject.

LOL

Wins the internet.

Carry on.

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[Brad225]

For those of you in the 'cables really do make a difference club', do Frank's Silver Resolution cables have any recommended 'directionality' to them? I'm asking, because the Acoustic Zen Satori cables they're replacing have markings to indicate signal flow from the Amp to the speakers. Or, is this a case of just being consistent and marking them myself?

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You could check with them. I would say any cables that I have seen that are directional are marked. It has to do with the grounding and or shielding.

 

[Hammerhead]

And before anyone takes me to task over semantics, please substitute 'club' for: 'school of thought'.

I seem to recall that some vendors claim directionality in a cable has to do with how the copper is extruded and the orientation of the crystals, or some such like that.

In any event, I'm already thrilled with Frank's cables. In the first half hour, I've found that strings have more 'voice', bass is tighter, and there's a more holographic sound. Specifically, the track Hotel California from the Hell Freezes Over album had been very sloppy with the Satori cables. Not so here, the kick drum is vastly improved.

Anyway, the testing continues.

Thanks to all for your input. It's all appreciated and noted. Agreement is not a prerequisite for participation, and your input has been helpful, even if it differs from my experience.

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[twich54]

Hammer, glad you're happy / satisfied with Frank's offerings. I think you have answered what I have felt all along......... a quality cable need not cost an arm and a leg.

 

[Speedskater]

You could check with them. I would say any cables that I have seen that are directional are marked. It has to do with the grounding and or shielding.

This is very true for completed cables. If the shield/ground is attached differently at each end connector, then the cable will be directional (in respect to interference & noise). How or if this impacts the sound will vary with each situation.

But the claim that with an audio signal a conductor or cable is directional is either wrong or very bad news! That would mean that the 'plus' half of a sine wave was different than the 'minus' half. That's something we call distortion.

 

[Hammerhead]

Hammer, glad you're happy / satisfied with Frank's offerings. I think you have answered what I have felt all along......... a quality cable need not cost and arm and a leg.

I have an email out to Frank, but being the weekend, I don't expect a reply until Monday. In the meantime, having check thoroughly and finding no markings, I placed two red wire ties on the amp side, and two blue wire ties on the speaker side,until u hear otherwise.

Still curious about power cable geometry. If the "power helix" configuration from Steve Reeve I posted earlier is not reliable, can someone link to something else?

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[Speedskater]

Still curious about power cable geometry. If the "power helix" configuration from Steve Reeve I posted earlier is not reliable, can someone link to something else?

See post # 41.

Although, 6 feet out of 50 to 500 feet, won't make much difference. It's a series circuit. So some things matter back to the main breaker panel and other things matter all the way back to the power company transformer.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

See post # 41.

Although, 6 feet out of 50 to 500 feet, won't make much difference. It's a series circuit. So some things matter back to the main breaker panel and other things matter all the way back to the power company transformer.

I think I like hydro produced power best, is has a nice clean quality to it. Nuclear power isn't too bad, but coal power is the worst. It just ruins the music.

 

[Bernard]

I have always found it unfortunate that a man can traverse this planet for over half a century and not learn how to keep a civilized tongue in his head. Resorting to sarcasm and ridicule is not considered being civilized.

 

[Hammerhead]

I think I like hydro produced power best, is has a nice clean quality to it. Nuclear power isn't too bad, but coal power is the worst. It just ruins the music.

LOL. You really just can't help yourself, can you?

See post # 41.

Although, 6 feet out of 50 to 500 feet, won't make much difference. It's a series circuit. So some things matter back to the main breaker panel and other things matter all the way back to the power company transformer.

So, because we're talking about two types of cables, and because I'm not an EE, I have to ask questions here from those who have more experience.

In addition to cables for the Amp and preamp, I need cables to run from my power conditioner, parallel to the speaker cable for some 15 feet so I don't know if that places any additional demands on the construction/geometry of the cable to prevent interference with the audio signal.

I have always found it unfortunate that a man can traverse this planet for over half a century and not learn how to keep a civilized tongue in his head. Resorting to sarcasm and ridicule is not considered being civilized.

I have no problem with sarcasm and irony. But after making your viewpoint known once or twice, any more becomes hubris.

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[RCHeliGuy]

LOL. You really just can't help yourself, can you?

Sorry, I meant that to be humorous, but I understand the humor is one sided. OK. Away with me. Time to kill more space ships

 

[Speedskater]

.......................................................................
So, because we're talking about two types of cables, and because I'm not an EE, I have to ask questions here from those who have more experience.
In addition to cables for the Amp and preamp, I need cables to run from my power conditioner, parallel to the speaker cable for some 15 feet so I don't know if that places any additional demands on the construction/geometry of the cable to prevent interference with the audio signal...........................................

Seldom read about parallel AC power cord and speaker cables.
But anyway if the speaker cables are a tightly spaced twisted pair (or quad) and you separate them from the power cords by 3 inches or more you should be OK.

 

[Speedskater]

................................................
Still curious about power cable geometry. If the "power helix" configuration from Steve Reeve I posted earlier is not reliable, can someone link to something else?
.........................

Another option is from Ram Electronics:
https://www.ramelectronics.net/ac-power-cables.aspx

Their PC & PCF cables are very nice or you could DIY a similar cable.
I have the part numbers from Parts Express. But only connect the shield at the hi-fi component end.

 

[Hammerhead]

Seldom read about parallel AC power cord and speaker cables.
But anyway if the speaker cables are a tightly spaced twisted pair (or quad) and you separate them from the power cords by 3 inches or more you should be OK.

The situation is this.

Per my other posts, I have my reQuests on the short wall of a long room. Because there's a fireplace/stove in between, I have to move my electronics to one side, hence the need for a 15' length and my original question about the importance of equal length to performance. I opted for two equal lengths of 15', so that piece is settled.

However, we need to also power the speakers, and because I want them plugged into the Panamax conditioner (which operates as a surge suppressor and also the main system power switch), I am needing to run a corresponding 15' power cable to the far speaker. That's why I'm curious to know about the possible concerns of the proximity of the power cable and speaker cable.

Because of the length involved, I was planning on a DIY solution. Perhaps something in the way of a metal wire braid (harness) to create the equivalent of a Faraday Cage might be the answer here?

Just kicking ideas around.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

So, because we're talking about two types of cables, and because I'm not an EE

FYI, I happen to have an electrical engineering degree and you will find that people with electrical engineering degrees will tend to share my opinions. The exception is the electrical engineer who is trying to sell you something.