beanbag
Well-known member
Being forgiven doesn't mean you won't do it again. (A valuable life lesson indeed)
Bi-wire?
- Thread starter Audio14
- Start date
Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:
Beachbound
Well-known member
Hmmm, I just took delivery today of my brand new Shunyata Triton and Zitron Anaconda...but will respectfully bow out of this one!
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Beach,
I have read very positive comments about these pieces on the WBF. They do take, as a minimum, 100 or so hours to break in from what I've read.
Would love to hear your insights.
GG
I have read very positive comments about these pieces on the WBF. They do take, as a minimum, 100 or so hours to break in from what I've read.
Would love to hear your insights.
GG
roberto
Well-known member
Hola. I am going to chime in here. Here are some points of view that are facts:
1) Sound it is a matter of liking.
2) What I do like, not necessary must be your liking. What I listen, not necessary you have to listen too.
3) Sound liking is subjective.
4) Overall sound is logarithmic.
5) Measurements are made at certain SPL level.
6) Only +-5dB in SPL is enough to measure a totally change of the frequency response domain of any room, using a pink noise, because of room acoustics. The absorption of any material in the room, changes dramatically at different SPL. Sabin is expressed as the unit of absorption/meter. Each material has different level and grade of absorption and it is expressed as the Sabin, as the SPL varies.
5) Using dipolar speakers like Martin Logan, usually the measure is wrong, because of the absolute phase. ML fires 180° the back signal with respect of the front 0°
6) What type of microphone is use for these measurements? If you use a condenser microphone, you need a phantom power supply of +48V. If you use another type of microphone, then, what you are using for measurement, depends of the quality of the mic. A good mic costs circa a Montis speakers.
7) Music is art. It is an expression of a feeling. How can you measure a feeling? This is a very subjective thing. As an example, classical music. You have the piano score. Every musician will play the work different, even that they are the same musical notes. How can you measure love or hate? Or pain, or happiness? Sadness?
8) Resonances are part of the musical instrument(s) and nuances are part of the musician(s). Too much room treatment could kill a room.
9) What it is good for the Bull, not necessary it is good for the cow. Everything is subjective to the liking and the kind of music. Recordings are not done the same way.
10) The best tool on hand is our ears: Trust in your ears!.
The sabin is defined as a unit of sound absorption. Sabins could be calculated with either imperial or metric units. One square foot of 100% absorbing material has a value of one Sabin. One square metre of 100% absorbing material has a value of one metric sabin. The unit is named in honor of Wallace Clement Sabine. The total absorption in metric sabins can be calculated by:
A=S1α1+S2α2+...+Snαn=ΣSiαi
where
A = the absorption of the room (m2 metric sabin)
Sn = area of the actual surface (m2)
αn = absorption coefficient of the actual surface
Sabins are used in calculating the reverberation time of concert halls, lecture theatres, etcetera.
Happy listening.
1) Sound it is a matter of liking.
2) What I do like, not necessary must be your liking. What I listen, not necessary you have to listen too.
3) Sound liking is subjective.
4) Overall sound is logarithmic.
5) Measurements are made at certain SPL level.
6) Only +-5dB in SPL is enough to measure a totally change of the frequency response domain of any room, using a pink noise, because of room acoustics. The absorption of any material in the room, changes dramatically at different SPL. Sabin is expressed as the unit of absorption/meter. Each material has different level and grade of absorption and it is expressed as the Sabin, as the SPL varies.
5) Using dipolar speakers like Martin Logan, usually the measure is wrong, because of the absolute phase. ML fires 180° the back signal with respect of the front 0°
6) What type of microphone is use for these measurements? If you use a condenser microphone, you need a phantom power supply of +48V. If you use another type of microphone, then, what you are using for measurement, depends of the quality of the mic. A good mic costs circa a Montis speakers.
7) Music is art. It is an expression of a feeling. How can you measure a feeling? This is a very subjective thing. As an example, classical music. You have the piano score. Every musician will play the work different, even that they are the same musical notes. How can you measure love or hate? Or pain, or happiness? Sadness?
8) Resonances are part of the musical instrument(s) and nuances are part of the musician(s). Too much room treatment could kill a room.
9) What it is good for the Bull, not necessary it is good for the cow. Everything is subjective to the liking and the kind of music. Recordings are not done the same way.
10) The best tool on hand is our ears: Trust in your ears!.
The sabin is defined as a unit of sound absorption. Sabins could be calculated with either imperial or metric units. One square foot of 100% absorbing material has a value of one Sabin. One square metre of 100% absorbing material has a value of one metric sabin. The unit is named in honor of Wallace Clement Sabine. The total absorption in metric sabins can be calculated by:
A=S1α1+S2α2+...+Snαn=ΣSiαi
where
A = the absorption of the room (m2 metric sabin)
Sn = area of the actual surface (m2)
αn = absorption coefficient of the actual surface
Sabins are used in calculating the reverberation time of concert halls, lecture theatres, etcetera.
Happy listening.
Last edited:
Agreed! Great post, Roberto.
Bernard
Well-known member
Agreed, especially point number 10. I read some drivel somewhere, where a guy made a statement that just because the subjectivists say something sounds better does not mean it is better.
User211
Well-known member
He probably meant technically, Bernard, in which case I agree.
I think the pertinent question here is whether it is more important to you that your system sounds optimum to your ears or whether it is more important that it measures correctly. I think most audiophiles would go with the former, while more than a few engineers would lean toward the latter. Personally, I think measurements are an important step toward getting your system optimized for great sound, but they represent only a percentage of the work that is needed to get there. What a lot of engineer types seem to overlook is that there are plenty of factors that affect sound quality that we have no easy way to measure, and sound quality itself is a highly subjective thing. In the end, your ears are the best tool to determine how your system sounds and whether any particular changes make a noticeable difference.
User211
Well-known member
There's not a massive correlation between subjective experience and technical proficiency, Rich. That's all I'm saying. Perfectly possible for the majority to prefer a system that is technically worse than another one by some margin. I'd live with the former if I thought it sounded better.
Absolutely agree, Justin. Kind of like those folks who prefer the sound of a euphonic tube amp to a technically better but dry sounding SS amp. I couldn't handle one in my system for long as I prefer a more natural and neutral representation, but I have to say that the rich harmonics of something like a Jolida can sound stunning with certain types of music.
beanbag
Well-known member
That would be Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging of various brain parts:
Wine Study Shows Price Influences Perception
http://www.caltech.edu/content/wine-study-shows-price-influences-perception
Also:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/04/health/facial-expressions/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
Scientists: "We know what floats your boat"
Last edited:
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging. Very impressive. Please elaborate its relevance to the thread at hand.
Wow, you must have some very serious measuring equipment in your home.
Thought I would share an interesting scientific analysis of the reasons why A/B/X testing is simply an invalid means of testing our abilities to differentiate subtle audible nuances between audio components: http://www.anstendig.org/ABTesting.html
Interestingly, the author states that the best way to determine such nuances is to first train yourself how to listen, and then listen to each component in your system with music that you are very familiar with over an extended period of time (weeks or months). People who do this are much more likely to be able to pick out those differences even in an A/B/X type of test. Of course, this is what Gordon, I, and others have been recommending for years as the best way to tell whether a component makes a positive or negative difference in the sound of your system.
Interestingly, the author states that the best way to determine such nuances is to first train yourself how to listen, and then listen to each component in your system with music that you are very familiar with over an extended period of time (weeks or months). People who do this are much more likely to be able to pick out those differences even in an A/B/X type of test. Of course, this is what Gordon, I, and others have been recommending for years as the best way to tell whether a component makes a positive or negative difference in the sound of your system.
InterMechanico
Well-known member
or Wikipedia! HAHA just being funny, I swear it!
Bernard
Well-known member
In the context of that wine study, I don't need an MRI to tell me when I have a hangover!
Considering I listen to vinyl through tubes, I'm very definitely on the euphonic side when it comes to preferences, especially since I have a Koetsu.
This thread reminds me: I recently went for a specialized eye test, during which the technician doing the test said to me, "You must not be able to see anything out that right eye; I can't get any light into it". When I told him that I see perfectly out that eye, he told me equipment never lies. So, because of his equipment he was convinced I was blind in one eye, even though I told him the contrary. The equipment was his infallible god.
Considering I listen to vinyl through tubes, I'm very definitely on the euphonic side when it comes to preferences, especially since I have a Koetsu.
This thread reminds me: I recently went for a specialized eye test, during which the technician doing the test said to me, "You must not be able to see anything out that right eye; I can't get any light into it". When I told him that I see perfectly out that eye, he told me equipment never lies. So, because of his equipment he was convinced I was blind in one eye, even though I told him the contrary. The equipment was his infallible god.
InterMechanico
Well-known member
So, from my perspective, equipment is great, but is limited by the humans who've built it. Show me a picture taken by the most advanced camera ever designed, and I'll bet my Vistas that I'll be able to see that it is, indeed, a photograph, and not reality. A microphone does not make a human ear, nor does a computer make a human brain IM Humble O.
Last edited:
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
You may want to look at the ******'s system on the "computer audiophile forum" website.
InterMechanico
Well-known member
I had a peek and found a rough drawing of his system. Could you elaborate on what I'm looking for please. Thank you Gordon.
Similar threads
