Balanced force subs and subs in general rant !... Why a 100K speaker needs a sub...?

[C.A.P]

Ok I know this will ruffle some feathers of a few as there are many that have pockets so deep they will succumb to the best sales pitch . Its not a bash on ML or a product but rather my insights and opinions! might draw insults or laughs :devil: Besides its audio related and seems debating is well revered here !

OK first let me start by saying $4k for a sub design that has been done and is NOT new technology.. Bipolar sub design was done back in the late 80's. Its a good way to do bass as its not as placement fussy and blends well with stats ! That being said its a new name on a old twist ! (SALES PITCH)... At least the Decent , Depth had a new and unique GOOD design..
For $4k I think a sub should have a fully active Digital x over with full control of the High pass section as well as low pass section.. Not all of the users are going to want to run a full signal to their older smaller woofers or panels with full range signal.. Especially when ML them selves no longer stocks them .. Even the Decent and Depths had a 40/70 HP section switch..

This control is a win win for many users of lesser wattage amps and tubes as rolling the highs off and relieving not only the amplifier of sub 30 to 40 hz will give you more dynamics and better mids and highs .. Why do we even call it a sub WOOFER when in reality what we actually are doing is bass augmentation as your augmenting the speakers running full range.. SUB, means below under, below, beneath.. Yeah yeah yeah it runs beneath the speakers capability (Ill lather you with that later) and overlaps somewhere with a 12 to 24db drop on the low pass.. Whats still going on is the woofers are still trying to reproduce that cannon blast as it to falls off at 6/12db STILL trying to play just loosing steam like a body builder on his 33rd rep barely getting the bar back up..

Now Im no MIT engineer but seems to me that relieving them at their 6 db point and bringing in the SUB a tad over that is a better safer way and your main amp will like you more and buy you donuts for doing it!





Now Im not promoting ANY manufacture as they all are in it for profit and PROFIT is not a bad word.. So take a SAID manufacture that offers a sub with FULL control of the unit with Full DSP Room correction and balanced inputs and outputs (that are working High pass outputs), as well as single ended.. High pass starting at 31 hz on up and a adjustable x over slope from 12/24 as well as the same for low pass x over control.. Not to mention High pass delay for us 2 Chanel guys.. It plays flat to 20 hz and is not $4k .. OH yeah it has a 1000Watt class D amp also but only has one driver ..Seems like a lot for what it does.. I mean it's made out of the same MDF as a $4k It does not have a secondary wood top.. or a second driver.. so I guess that driver and wood top cost $2500 ... Now this is not a Attack on ML but rather a opinion of a consumer.. Remember opinions are like a$$h.oles, everyone has them and they all stink.. By the BY, this sub cost around $1500 retail..and is well revered by many who actually listen and dont buy by recommendations and brand but ear and dollar value!

Now many of you will say my $5k plus processor will do that so I guess I need to spend more to control my bass..

With today's audio going the way of DSP and digital DAC/ streaming.. Control is going to be a big selling feature as I do not think we have touched on the tip of the iceberg yet with DSP x overs and such.. Class D has become a real player and will be new wave of the future with lower to mid priced designs.. Some have been doing it for years with fair success.. As for BASS its a must with full control and the ability to help your mains too

Ok Now my 100k speaker rant.. This plays into the sub woofer discussion a tad.. So why do we need to spend good money op a speaker that is good to 20 to 24 hz and add a sub.. I can see for HT as subterranean Dinosaur stomps and bomb blasts but I still dont want my main woofers trying to reproduce that.. Many do this with two channel to compensate for room issues..

Why buy a speaker that is good to those levels and stuff it into a room thats undersized and wonder why bass is shy or flubby.. Why not look into a speaker that is suited to the room and buy a sub that blends the two.. Seems I have seen many with the new Masterpiece series have went that way.. I know I would not spend $25k and have to buy $4 k plus for the bass I just paid for the fist time.. Seems counter intuitive..

This brings me into a demo I just did at a local store that had over $400k in goods and a $100k set of speakers.. I sat and listened to one of my demo songs as I know it well and was let down as I heard a great big muddled mid bass and thick woolly lower end.. I asked this sales man if he had the twin Norse god subs that were in the corner with twin 15 inch woofers playing.. He said YES! I was insulted and asked why do I need a two subs with 2 15 inch woofers a piece for an extra 30K with a speaker that is flat to 20 hz +/-3d

Isnt that a bit insulting to the speakers designer and the speaker itself.. I walked out knowing my paltry ML did a better job of overall performance and value.. Now dont get me wrong the $40 k in wireing and hook up cabling did help..

:duh: What was I thinking

 

[timm]

CAP. If it helps - I listened to a pair of Wilson Alexandria XLFs and was also underwhelmed. They too had monster - I'll call them 'bass units' but it was overwhelming. I shut it down and was still not impressed. Just not my cup of tea. My son and I had a listen and both of us felt the lower mids were missing

 

[JonFo]

It is all about integration with the room, especially in the bass region.

For me, a "full range loudspeaker" is an oxymoron, as it might measure flat 20 to 20 in an anechoic chamber, but will never deliver flat full-range performance in-room. And since the drivers for all ranges are co-located, and people generally prioritize high-frequency sound-staging over bass integration, you wind up with a lopsided mess.
So yes, $100K speakers are just crazy in my book. One can spend a fraction of that and get excellent sound.

For me, the best bet is indeed something like the Renaissance ESL 15A plus at least two balanced force 212's. Four would be ideal. Run the ARC on them, then layer on top a good Dirac Live Room correction and I'd live with that any day over a pair of Neoliths. And for a lot less money no less.

Also, any sub system that does not leverage a good DSP and DRC is a total waste of time. Sort of in the same way I'd not buy a sports car with a carbureted engine when one can get electronic fuel injection with direct port injection these days.

 

[C.A.P]

I was figuring on seeing you..Actually hoping as you have done more active x over work than many.. I do agree that a sub system can be of great competition to any FULL range speaker.. I also agree with FULLY controllable x overs.. You your self have done both high pass and low pass over lap.. With DSP which I feel is mandatory also.. I just cant see spending $4 k on a sub that has no control of the overall spectrum of things.. This is two channel I am referring to as many processors have that capability..

Room choice and speaker integration are so important.. Take the esl 15a and you have DSP already trying to correct the room.. SORRY but 22hz is 22 hz.. Some room gain or suck out happens.. I am not buying a speaker that has SUBS built in and DSP doing its best and adding on a $4k sub that will try to RE DSP them and hope to not muddle things up.. Ill treat my room to match the speakers potential.. Hence where I feel a true HIG pass OUT is mandatory even if your High passing at 35 hz as its a small overlap ... That's the issue with Self powered combos.. Its the exact reason why I am in favor of powering my own woofers.. You loose a lot of flexibility in my opinion

Give me a CLX and a pair of SUBS you can control High pass.. Do DSP and you have it cracked ! At least I have no woofer overlap, and panels just wont play those low notes as they roll off fast.. What are we actually paying that extra $20 k on as MYLAR and steel perforated metal has not went up in cost that much and its a tried and true method that they have mastered so recouping is not a issue. The DSP based wood subwoofer cabinets.. Lets take the NEOLITH.. You your self know big panel sound..To replace the panels on your Monoliths its $3k for a pair.. Mylar and metal perf.. I wonder how much the Neoliths are to replace that same 2x4 foot of mylar and metal pair..

HMMMM... So .. lets just say there is a lot your paying for good bass and cabinetry

Kind of like what I was saying about the 212 subs.. Older proven design done in the 90, No full control for us two channel guys fancy wood top and new NAME to market a old design.. Sure, does it do well on bass , Probably but at what cost and sacrifices.. I have two bi polar subs that do well.. Now you add a Velodyne sms 1 that does a hell of a lot more than the ML cross over DSP ..

OH yeah I would not pay 100K and have to add a sub, Dint say I wouldn't pay $100k for a $100k worth of pleasure:devil:

 

[Northy]

To each his own! People with deep pockets will do anything to shore up their lives. But for the rest of us working people, we need to spend our money wisely and always be mindful of the Law of Diminishing Returns. I have cobbled together over many years a system roughly around $15k. The stars of this package are the pair of Theos, a Matinee and a Balanced Force 210. All sub-80 HZ signal is routed to the sub via the receiver's processor. The amp powering up the Theos is a modest $1,500 unit bi-amping the Theos and the Matinee.

I have to say that I am truly impressed by the sound of my system. The synergy between the components is fundamental and very apparent in the system.

 

[C.A.P]

Synergy is key .. Taking time to blend and work with the room.. Most today are sadly not dedicated two channel listeners. Like you they use a processors x over to high pass their speakers. I think it can work well but I have separate HT and two channel systems. I like the 210 and would be all over it if it were fully controllable with balanced ins or outs ,but at the cost now, it is its lacking in my opinion.. . Not in performance but user hook ups which would not be costly to add

 

[Brad225]

To each his own! People with deep pockets will do anything to shore up their lives. But for the rest of us working people, we need to spend our money wisely and always be mindful of the Law of Diminishing Returns.

Northy, are you really suggesting the "People with deep pockets" don't work or haven't been a working person and have "life issues" that need shoring up?. I'm curious what you consider deep pockets?

 

[timm]

To each his own! People with deep pockets will do anything to shore up their lives. But for the rest of us working people, we need to spend our money wisely and always be mindful of the Law of Diminishing Returns.

Northy, are you really suggesting the "People with deep pockets" don't work or haven't been a working person and have "life issues" that need shoring up?. I'm curious what you consider deep pockets?

That's funny. My neighbor calls me 'deep pockets'. But only because my wife keeps getting 'deals' on trips. Haha.

 

[Northy]

Hi Brad,

No disrespect! From your photo, I believe you own a CLX and good for you. I never implied that you did not work hard for your money. We average-income earners have to get the most bang for our buck. Sure, I would love to have ML's top-tier gear; but is not going to happen any time soon unless my lotto numbers come up.

As far as life issues, it was meant to be a joke referring to mid-life crisis which most of us have or will experience. As I said, I would love to buy the toys that I really love but I have to be humble and stick to my budget.

 

[Leporello]

Ok I know this will ruffle some feathers of a few as there are many that have pockets so deep they will succumb to the best sales pitch . Its not a bash on ML or a product but rather my insights and opinions! might draw insults or laughs :devil: Besides its audio related and seems debating is well revered here !

OK first let me start by saying $4k for a sub design that has been done and is NOT new technology.. Bipolar sub design was done back in the late 80's. Its a good way to do bass as its not as placement fussy and blends well with stats ! That being said its a new name on a old twist ! (SALES PITCH)... At least the Decent , Depth had a new and unique GOOD design..
For $4k I think a sub should have a fully active Digital x over with full control of the High pass section as well as low pass section.. Not all of the users are going to want to run a full signal to their older smaller woofers or panels with full range signal.. Especially when ML them selves no longer stocks them .. Even the Decent and Depths had a 40/70 HP section switch..

This control is a win win for many users of lesser wattage amps and tubes as rolling the highs off and relieving not only the amplifier of sub 30 to 40 hz will give you more dynamics and better mids and highs .. Why do we even call it a sub WOOFER when in reality what we actually are doing is bass augmentation as your augmenting the speakers running full range.. SUB, means below under, below, beneath.. Yeah yeah yeah it runs beneath the speakers capability (Ill lather you with that later) and overlaps somewhere with a 12 to 24db drop on the low pass.. Whats still going on is the woofers are still trying to reproduce that cannon blast as it to falls off at 6/12db STILL trying to play just loosing steam like a body builder on his 33rd rep barely getting the bar back up..

Now Im no MIT engineer but seems to me that relieving them at their 6 db point and bringing in the SUB a tad over that is a better safer way and your main amp will like you more and buy you donuts for doing it!





Now Im not promoting ANY manufacture as they all are in it for profit and PROFIT is not a bad word.. So take a SAID manufacture that offers a sub with FULL control of the unit with Full DSP Room correction and balanced inputs and outputs (that are working High pass outputs), as well as single ended.. High pass starting at 31 hz on up and a adjustable x over slope from 12/24 as well as the same for low pass x over control.. Not to mention High pass delay for us 2 Chanel guys.. It plays flat to 20 hz and is not $4k .. OH yeah it has a 1000Watt class D amp also but only has one driver ..Seems like a lot for what it does.. I mean it's made out of the same MDF as a $4k It does not have a secondary wood top.. or a second driver.. so I guess that driver and wood top cost $2500 ... Now this is not a Attack on ML but rather a opinion of a consumer.. Remember opinions are like a$$h.oles, everyone has them and they all stink.. By the BY, this sub cost around $1500 retail..and is well revered by many who actually listen and dont buy by recommendations and brand but ear and dollar value!

Now many of you will say my $5k plus processor will do that so I guess I need to spend more to control my bass..

With today's audio going the way of DSP and digital DAC/ streaming.. Control is going to be a big selling feature as I do not think we have touched on the tip of the iceberg yet with DSP x overs and such.. Class D has become a real player and will be new wave of the future with lower to mid priced designs.. Some have been doing it for years with fair success.. As for BASS its a must with full control and the ability to help your mains too

Ok Now my 100k speaker rant.. This plays into the sub woofer discussion a tad.. So why do we need to spend good money op a speaker that is good to 20 to 24 hz and add a sub.. I can see for HT as subterranean Dinosaur stomps and bomb blasts but I still dont want my main woofers trying to reproduce that.. Many do this with two channel to compensate for room issues..

Why buy a speaker that is good to those levels and stuff it into a room thats undersized and wonder why bass is shy or flubby.. Why not look into a speaker that is suited to the room and buy a sub that blends the two.. Seems I have seen many with the new Masterpiece series have went that way.. I know I would not spend $25k and have to buy $4 k plus for the bass I just paid for the fist time.. Seems counter intuitive..

This brings me into a demo I just did at a local store that had over $400k in goods and a $100k set of speakers.. I sat and listened to one of my demo songs as I know it well and was let down as I heard a great big muddled mid bass and thick woolly lower end.. I asked this sales man if he had the twin Norse god subs that were in the corner with twin 15 inch woofers playing.. He said YES! I was insulted and asked why do I need a two subs with 2 15 inch woofers a piece for an extra 30K with a speaker that is flat to 20 hz +/-3d

Isnt that a bit insulting to the speakers designer and the speaker itself.. I walked out knowing my paltry ML did a better job of overall performance and value.. Now dont get me wrong the $40 k in wireing and hook up cabling did help..

:duh: What was I thinking

My feathers are not easily ruffled but not sure what your point is

 

[Brad225]

Chances are you may not get a response from 7 years ago. Most of us were not ruffled if matters Leporello.

Wait, I just responded. Never mind.

 

[Fidji99]

Chances are you may not get a response from 7 years ago. Most of us were not ruffled if matters Leporello.

Wait, I just responded. Never mind.

Sometimes it is better to think it over properly, than answer in haste.
7 years is very Zen.

But thread topic is valid as ever - yes, even best speakers will benefit from proper subwoofers. My 15A’s go nominally well below 20Hz in the room, but with 8x18 in subs crossed over at 80Hz it just feels different.