ATVX Discussion

[msimanyi]

So I'm probably posting a crazy, esoteric thing here that will interest very few of you, but isn't that what these forums are all about?

I am placing an order for one myself so I can't speak to the qualities... yet.

Here's the product: APPLE TV X - GTT Audio

And here's a rather extensive thread on WhatsBestForum discussing it: AppleTV X - I am playing with something new

I will say that when I first saw that thread, I thought the OP might be exaggerating a bit. In one of the videos I watched (below), they discuss some of the background of the man behind AppleTVX and the product's performance, and that made me do a deeper dive on it.

 

[Robert D]

So I'm probably posting a crazy, esoteric thing here that will interest very few of you, but isn't that what these forums are all about?

I am placing an order for one myself so I can't speak to the qualities... yet.

Here's the product: APPLE TV X - GTT Audio

And here's a rather extensive thread on WhatsBestForum discussing it: AppleTV X - I am playing with something new

I will say that when I first saw that thread, I thought the OP might be exaggerating a bit. In one of the videos I watched (below), they discuss some of the background of the man behind AppleTVX and the product's performance, and that made me do a deeper dive on it.

I can't find the cost. How much is it? Sounds intriguing.

 

[msimanyi]

You *really* don't want to know!

https://appletvx.com/
Okay, not to be frustrating anyone: $2,500.

And you can have it in any color you want*.







* As long as you want black.

 

[JonFo]

Okay, not to be frustrating anyone: $2,500

I'm intrigued, but I can think of many other things to do with 2.5K that would make all audio playback better.

I find the stock ATV4K to be an excellent A/V source as-is.

 

[Fidji99]

So I'm probably posting a crazy, esoteric thing here that will interest very few of you, but isn't that what these forums are all about?

I am placing an order for one myself so I can't speak to the qualities... yet.

Here's the product: APPLE TV X - GTT Audio

And here's a rather extensive thread on WhatsBestForum discussing it: AppleTV X - I am playing with something new

I will say that when I first saw that thread, I thought the OP might be exaggerating a bit. In one of the videos I watched (below), they discuss some of the background of the man behind AppleTVX and the product's performance, and that made me do a deeper dive on it.

Kudos to them. Brave guys. To claim improvements in audio is one thing (“we could all suddenly hear day and night difference”). To claim that you can improve video, where the easiest thing to do is to take picture/video and do A/B is another.

I would still be curious, how linear power supply can compensate for lossy compression codecs of Netflix&Co.

 

[msimanyi]

I had a lengthy phone call with Chris the other day. He's the guy who developed all this. I honestly don't think he was trying to "sell" me on it, but his enthusiasm for the project was clear. He's an engineer, with a strong background in some exceptionally high-end home theaters. He testified in a class action lawsuit about cable modem/routers. He has what I believe is "industry credibility."

Hearing his telling of the background, this is largely about solving jitter and noise problems, but the biggest effect may well be our *perception* of those results. He didn't present it this way, but my thought is: You know how those Magic Eye artworks were just a random drawing of stuff until you managed to "see" the underlying image? It may be like that - it's possible something is coming together in our brains, perceiving a more believable image.

In any case, there's enough there that I thought I might be wasting my money, but I at least want to see it myself and compare it with my Kaleidescape system, which outperforms any audio/video I've seen in my system or in anyone else's system. (I don't have a disc player, and I don't have friends with high-budget home theaters.)

It seems a couple hundred of these AppleTVX are "in the wild." I haven't yet seen any owners write that it's just hype.

 

[Robert D]

I had a lengthy phone call with Chris the other day. He's the guy who developed all this. I honestly don't think he was trying to "sell" me on it, but his enthusiasm for the project was clear. He's an engineer, with a strong background in some exceptionally high-end home theaters. He testified in a class action lawsuit about cable modem/routers. He has what I believe is "industry credibility."

Hearing his telling of the background, this is largely about solving jitter and noise problems, but the biggest effect may well be our *perception* of those results. He didn't present it this way, but my thought is: You know how those Magic Eye artworks were just a random drawing of stuff until you managed to "see" the underlying image? It may be like that - it's possible something is coming together in our brains, perceiving a more believable image.

In any case, there's enough there that I thought I might be wasting my money, but I at least want to see it myself and compare it with my Kaleidescape system, which outperforms any audio/video I've seen in my system or in anyone else's system. (I don't have a disc player, and I don't have friends with high-budget home theaters.)

It seems a couple hundred of these AppleTVX are "in the wild." I haven't yet seen any owners write that it's just hype.

It doesnt make sense why its so costly. What does the hardware actually do, what are the parts?

 

[Robert D]

So I'm probably posting a crazy, esoteric thing here that will interest very few of you, but isn't that what these forums are all about?

I am placing an order for one myself so I can't speak to the qualities... yet.

Here's the product: APPLE TV X - GTT Audio

And here's a rather extensive thread on WhatsBestForum discussing it: AppleTV X - I am playing with something new

I will say that when I first saw that thread, I thought the OP might be exaggerating a bit. In one of the videos I watched (below), they discuss some of the background of the man behind AppleTVX and the product's performance, and that made me do a deeper dive on it.

I read some of the Whats best forum thread and got the basic idea of what the device is and does. So you are going to buy one? Let us know what you think. Id like to know.

 

[ttocs]

You *really* don't want to know!
https://appletvx.com/Okay, not to be frustrating anyone: $2,500.
And you can have it in any color you want*.

* As long as you want black.

First off, thanks for sharing this. I wouldn't have known otherwise.

They, the AppleTV X folks, have some interesting info and ideas. They also showed why the latest ATV4K is not one to buy, but instead buy the previous model, because of what they call "cost cutting" design and manufacturing.

I've been watching the test and demo videos they have posted. Other than noise in power delivery, I don't see anything else being espoused about what can be improved, except that once the internal power supply has been disabled the amount of internally generated heat is also reduced (my assumption, they didn't mention it), maybe by quite a bit. Win, win.

So am I missing anything here? As far as I can see, the only "mod" might be eliminating the internal power supply in favor of a much quieter external power supply.

I only have a limited knowledge about noisy power supplies. What I do know is that I've got some noisy power supplies for things like my wireless devices for my subwoofers and miniDSP's, etc. These "walwarts" make noise just by being plugged in and sharing their noise on the AC line segment that other devices are also plugged into. I just went through this during this last week with trying to measure very low single and double digit mV/mA to find out how much power it takes to turn on a sub set for Auto power. I had to use a power strip and an isolated circuit to get the Common Mode Noise down enough to get some decent measurements.

So, things are noisy, I get that. Make things less noisy and super quiet stuff is better, and possibly some louder stuff is also better when the noisy peak spikes are tamed a lot.

Is there something else that has been "modded" in the ATV4K other than power?

edit: Ok, their web site needs some tweaking so things are easier to find. I found that they do indeed mod some stuff inside the ATV case.

Still, it seems that it's all about noise reduction, which is good because other benefits come along for the ride.

If one is considering purchasing a AppleTV X, then it would behoove the folks who are selling these to also make power supplies of the same quality to replace all cheap walwarts of the various output voltages to further eliminate interference.

 

[msimanyi]

I've ordered one. Should ship Monday.

Chris mentioned jitter multiple times. My interpretation of the message he gave is that the industry didn't know about jitter in audio when CDs were released. We just knew something didn't sound right, then when the jitter issue was identified and cured, we heard significant improvements. More important: people haven't been discussing or considering jitter in video, and the effect is substantial. Also, HDMI is a train wreck from an engineering standard and suffers serious issues in a standard implementation.

I found some post of his on AVS Forum where he details all the items changed. Yes, there's an external linear power supply. But there's more. Let me see if I can find the post again.

Found it. Here's what he posted, and I'll add that shipping is included in the price:

For the ATV.. I can cover costs clearly so you know..

The ATV itself is $179, unless on sale. The linear is $150. I replace parts on the ATV board, 2 high end clock chips cost $87. I have other parts on the board and those tiotal $35. I have to have the board sent out for SMD rework. This costs $350 for a bunch of stupid reasons. There are parts I use outside the board. Those cost $61. There is special wire used that goes to the connector. Thats $28. Thats $829 in raw cost without labor. Each unit to take apart and put back together and all the soldering and making the final unit take 6 hours of my labor where I can't do other normal work. It takes time to package each one up. As my day job I can make $90/hr I loose about $600 in lost labor I could do. But really its a full day because 6hrs ends up being a whole day. So really i loose $800 making one that I have to cover in the cost. So all total its $1700 mfg cost to make one. But I need to profit and I need to have a dist/dealer margin too. So while $2500 sounds high, its not..

I AM SORRY I can't do it for less, but, I cant. I would LOVE TO.. I do now and then have b-stock units where a lineal got dinged or something. and I sell those for cheap.

I am sorry I cant make them cheaper. Its expensive.

 

[Robert D]

I've ordered one. Should ship Monday.

Chris mentioned jitter multiple times. My interpretation of the message he gave is that the industry didn't know about jitter in audio when CDs were released. We just knew something didn't sound right, then when the jitter issue was identified and cured, we heard significant improvements. More important: people haven't been discussing or considering jitter in video, and the effect is substantial. Also, HDMI is a train wreck from an engineering standard and suffers serious issues in a standard implementation.

I found some post of his on AVS Forum where he details all the items changed. Yes, there's an external linear power supply. But there's more. Let me see if I can find the post again.

Found it. Here's what he posted, and I'll add that shipping is included in the price:

For the ATV.. I can cover costs clearly so you know..

The ATV itself is $179, unless on sale. The linear is $150. I replace parts on the ATV board, 2 high end clock chips cost $87. I have other parts on the board and those tiotal $35. I have to have the board sent out for SMD rework. This costs $350 for a bunch of stupid reasons. There are parts I use outside the board. Those cost $61. There is special wire used that goes to the connector. Thats $28. Thats $829 in raw cost without labor. Each unit to take apart and put back together and all the soldering and making the final unit take 6 hours of my labor where I can't do other normal work. It takes time to package each one up. As my day job I can make $90/hr I loose about $600 in lost labor I could do. But really its a full day because 6hrs ends up being a whole day. So really i loose $800 making one that I have to cover in the cost. So all total its $1700 mfg cost to make one. But I need to profit and I need to have a dist/dealer margin too. So while $2500 sounds high, its not..

I AM SORRY I can't do it for less, but, I cant. I would LOVE TO.. I do now and then have b-stock units where a lineal got dinged or something. and I sell those for cheap.

I am sorry I cant make them cheaper. Its expensive.

So, I guess you can hook up your standard Apple tv 4k and then the new one on a different input. Compare the video and audio on the two. If it's substantial, then we will find out. I'm glad you came on this thread.

 

[ttocs]

@msimanyi this may need to be a thread of its own, dunno. But this ATV-X stuff is pretty interesting!

This opens up looking at power supplies in general that are maxxed out due to trying to stay within lower power guidelines which may impact performance. I wouldn't mind if power supplies were more modular such that they could be swapped with super low noise versions.

I've been looking at the separate plug-in power supplies for my wireless subwoofer trasmitter/receiver pairs and miniDSP, which have proven to be noisy and bothering me when making some general measurements, and I know that this interference is on the AC line because of the proximity of the ones I unplugged (all the devices in test and the items unplugged were on the same circuit) to clean up and lower the noise floor. How much is audible? Not much really due to the high frequency of it, but what else might it be affecting? This is a reason for more electrical circuits.

So now I'm interested to find out how much of this noise that I experienced creeps back from the panel and infects other isolated circuits? More fun with testing!

 

[msimanyi]

this may need to be a thread of its own, dunno. But this ATV-X stuff is pretty interesting!

If the mods would like to split it out, I'd be fine with that... though I do think it's generally related to the 2021 AppleTV subject.

So is now a bad time to go further off-topic with an interesting observation about SDR and HDR?

@Robert D I definitely plan to compare though I don't know if it's practical to set it up for synchronized playback and A/B switching. I'm not talented enough to pull that off in any reasonably "scientific" manner. I figured I'd unplug the HDMI and ethernet cables from my current ATV and simply plug them into the ATVX. (The power cords are different and not interchangeable.) Probably do that a couple times on a few different sources.

If those comparisons go well, the next step is a comparison with my Kaleidescape.

 

[Robert D]

If the mods would like to split it out, I'd be fine with that... though I do think it's generally related to the 2021 AppleTV subject.

So is now a bad time to go further off-topic with an interesting observation about SDR and HDR?

@Robert D I definitely plan to compare though I don't know if it's practical to set it up for synchronized playback and A/B switching. I'm not talented enough to pull that off in any reasonably "scientific" manner. I figured I'd unplug the HDMI and ethernet cables from my current ATV and simply plug them into the ATVX. (The power cords are different and not interchangeable.) Probably do that a couple times on a few different sources.

If those comparisons go well, the next step is a comparison with my Kaleidescape.

I think I would try just using a different HDMI cable plugged into a different input on the receiver/pre-amp. Like maybe use the CD input (HDMI 3 for exaple) for one of the devices and the TV input (HDMI 2 for example) for the other. You could just use your receiver remote to switch between the two inputs and compare. I think that might work well?

Cue up the same movie on each box and switch back and forth.

 

[JonFo]

If the mods would like to split it out, I'd be fine with that... though I do think it's generally related to the 2021 AppleTV subject.

For now, this is fine, but if you ever want to split it out, we can do that. Just ask.

 

[msimanyi]

I had a whole post in-progress to link back to this and split out the AppleTVX subject, but a Windows update trashed that. I'll set it up again shortly, but I'm just posting to say I have the AppleTVX in my rack as of last night, and I will observe and compare before posting back with any considered comments.

Initial, knee-jerk reactions, at least for the video quality, is I am not regretting spending the money.

At some point in the next couple weeks, I'll do an A/B test not only against the standard ATV, but also against my Kaleidescape system. Gotta live with it for a while before drawing any conclusions.

 

[msimanyi]

Another trickle of not-yet-well-based opinion: I'm not quite sure how to describe the improvements over the standard AppleTV. They are not subtle. *Everything* is substantially better and more natural.

Much like when I acquired a new DAC earlier this year, I am finding myself staying up waaaaaay too late, just enjoying it.

I think this wouldn't be apparent on a $300 LCD with the audio playing over the TV speakers, but on a decent system the results are impressive. Astounding even.

 

[Robert D]

Another trickle of not-yet-well-based opinion: I'm not quite sure how to describe the improvements over the standard AppleTV. They are not subtle. *Everything* is substantially better and more natural.

Much like when I acquired a new DAC earlier this year, I am finding myself staying up waaaaaay too late, just enjoying it.

I think this wouldn't be apparent on a $300 LCD with the audio playing over the TV speakers, but on a decent system the results are impressive. Astounding even.

You dont think there is some "placebo effect" at all? Im guessing you switched back and forth between the two different sources to compare the video and audio?
I think you said that the video is the main thing you notice. Does the sound seem better too?

 

[msimanyi]

You dont think there is some "placebo effect" at all? Im guessing you switched back and forth between the two different sources to compare the video and audio?
I think you said that the video is the main thing you notice. Does the sound seem better too?

Until I do a firm A/B comparison (and I plan to do so vs my Kaleidescape system as well), I have to leave the door open on placebo effect.

But... I will emphasize that what I'm seeing is a significant improvement. It's absolutely not subtle. I can't imagine this is a placebo effect.

Regarding audio, I have a reasonably good ear when listening to two-channel playback. I think it's a human trait that when you add video, attention to the detailed psychoacoustic effects is diminished. While I can say that there seems to be considerable dynamic improvement in bold sounds like gunshots or explosions, I have to fall back to a more conservative observation that background music seems more interesting, more detailed, more delicate and precise, but it doesn't stand out as obviously as the video improvements.

I think where that will become interesting is when I do the A/B comparison.

Do you have any particular movies or shows (and specific scenes or "times" within the show) you know well and prefer, that demonstrate audio quality? Master and Commander is one that comes to mind, but if you have something in particular I'd be happy to familiarize myself with it.

From my two-channel experience, I find the answer most revealing after living with the new setup for a week or two, then returning to the former configuration and noting what is lost and/or gained in the changeover.

Final comment: the developer of the ATVX mentioned he needs to update the written instruction card. For the Sony A90J - and likely other Sony OLEDs as well - he recommends turning down color by 10. My set is calibrated, and turning it down anywhere from 7-10 seems reasonable to my eye. I'm running at 43 right now, and will reset it to 50 for the ATV and Kaleidescape comparisons.

 

[Robert D]

Until I do a firm A/B comparison (and I plan to do so vs my Kaleidescape system as well), I have to leave the door open on placebo effect.

But... I will emphasize that what I'm seeing is a significant improvement. It's absolutely not subtle. I can't imagine this is a placebo effect.

Regarding audio, I have a reasonably good ear when listening to two-channel playback. I think it's a human trait that when you add video, attention to the detailed psychoacoustic effects is diminished. While I can say that there seems to be considerable dynamic improvement in bold sounds like gunshots or explosions, I have to fall back to a more conservative observation that background music seems more interesting, more detailed, more delicate and precise, but it doesn't stand out as obviously as the video improvements.

I think where that will become interesting is when I do the A/B comparison.

Do you have any particular movies or shows (and specific scenes or "times" within the show) you know well and prefer, that demonstrate audio quality? Master and Commander is one that comes to mind, but if you have something in particular I'd be happy to familiarize myself with it.

From my two-channel experience, I find the answer most revealing after living with the new setup for a week or two, then returning to the former configuration and noting what is lost and/or gained in the changeover.

Final comment: the developer of the ATVX mentioned he needs to update the written instruction card. For the Sony A90J - and likely other Sony OLEDs as well - he recommends turning down color by 10. My set is calibrated, and turning it down anywhere from 7-10 seems reasonable to my eye. I'm running at 43 right now, and will reset it to 50 for the ATV and Kaleidescape comparisons.

I look forward to your testing! As far as scenes in movies, I can't name any in particular. In one of the John Wick movies there's a scene where John and a lady friend are having a gun fight with some enemies. They have 2 or more dogs with them. The Dolby Atmos in that scene is amazing. I watched it on my 4k player however, but it's impressive. Bullets sounded like they were whizzing past my head. Afraid I don't remember which movie it was. If I were to guess, I'd say #2.