Atmos Speakers for 7.1.4

[JohnLomnicki]

I just pulled the trigger on a Denon AVR-X7200WA. I have an existing 7.1 system with Vista, Stage X, Script and some smaller floor standing panel speakers for rear surrounds with a Sub. I have used the system with a 3808ci for a few years and been happy with the sound for home theater sound.

I have in ceiling acoustic treatments exactly where you might want to place the Atmos speakers n ceiling.

I'm currently considering the following options, if there are more, let me know. I can put together pictures and diagrams if needed.

Martin Logan Motion 4 - the speakers are narrow enough and light enough to fit between the ceiling treatments and be in almost the recommended position.

Martin Logan Fresco/Fresco I - mounted to the ceiling but a little further from the recommended Atmos position.

Bookshelf speakers - Mounted as front and rear height channels, directed towards the sweet spot. Emotive Airmotiv 6s, Motion 15, etc.

Custom Box (longer project) - Spend the rest of the year or more building a custom speaker that matches the sound I'm looking for in a box that fits in the right space.

Move the ceiling treatments, redo the ceiling and install ceiling speakers.

Somethings else?

Thanks in advance.

 

[GaryG]

Congrats the I think you will enjoy the Denon. I really Like the Martin Logan architectural series.

This is my vote. Consider the Martin Logan Vanquish.

Gary

 

[JohnLomnicki]

Looks like I'm going to need to go hear the Vanquish. I've been biased against in ceiling speakers in the past. I'm not exactly sure why, but I've always had it in my head that speakers need a box.

Given this application I should at least go hear the speakers. I should take some time to critically listen to my options....

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Ceiling speakers are generally in a poor position to deliver high quality sound.

I've NEVER heard someone knowledgeable about home theaters say anything positive about ceiling speakers.

Wall mounted speakers are fine. Typically they have mounts that allow them to be tilted.

In Wall speakers can be good as well, BUT you need to have the right spacing behind the speaker in the wall and baffling ( fiberglass insulation etc ) should be in place.

Ideally you would have wall mounted or floor standing speakers placed well on each side of your screen and the center channel firing just below the screen or through the screen for a projector system. Side and rear speakers are less critical.

 

[RUR]

Ceiling speakers are generally in a poor position to deliver high quality sound.

I've NEVER heard someone knowledgeable about home theaters say anything positive about ceiling speakers....

Mark, all three of the new immersive audio formats - Atmos/DTS:X/Auro - utilize ceiling speakers (or speakers which reflect upon the ceiling) to perform their hemispherical immersive magic. At the recent CEDIA show, I was able to hear perhaps a dozen show installations, ranging from a few $K to well into six figures, and the results can be jaw dropping.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Mark, all three of the new immersive audio formats - Atmos/DTS:X/Auro - utilize ceiling speakers (or speakers which reflect upon the ceiling) to perform their hemispherical immersive magic. At the recent CEDIA show, I was able to hear perhaps a dozen show installations, ranging from a few $K to well into six figures, and the results can be jaw dropping.

I have to ask though, is it the best of a bad situation or an improvement over speakers on the wall.

My take is that it is inherently a poor starting point and that it takes a LOT of effort, which equals more expense, to get similar results to a much less expensive wall mounted solution.

Firing from the ceiling is fighting against the natural acoustics of a room. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I don't think I would choose this solution unless I was limited to a ceiling installation.

 

[RUR]

I have to ask though, is it the best of a bad situation or an improvement over speakers on the wall.....

All three formats utilize speakers specifically on or near the ceiling to provide the most immersive experience you've ever heard. Movies are being mixed, theaters are being upgraded to support one or more of the three formats and Blu-rays are already being released, primarily in Atmos, for now.

Feel free to Google any of the three formats to find much, much more information e.g. http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/home/dolby-atmos.html

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Thanks for helping to educate me.

Atmos is something new for me. So "basically" you add two ceiling speakers or upward firing speakers to add Z axis control of the sound.

Interesting concept. I suspect it will be a while before there is much media available that takes advantage of this, but it makes sense as the next direction to pursue.

Maybe when I build my next media room.

 

[JohnLomnicki]

RUR - On the Atmos setups you listened too, was there any that stood out? Any idea why they stood out?

 

[RUR]

RUR - On the Atmos setups you listened too, was there any that stood out? Any idea why they stood out?

Hi John,

Well, the best system, by far, demo'd all three codecs using something like 26 speakers in a ~$200K JBL/Trinnov setup. For we mere mortals, the most useful advice I could give would be to use four ceiling speakers vs. two. I heard a couple of setups using 7.1.2 or 5.1.2 and the loss of overhead vectoring was very noticeable. More speakers means better seat to seat imaging, if you're putting together a multi-seat HT, but the (current) practical limit, as you probably know, is the max 11 channel decoding found in any AVR/PrePro not named Trinnov.

I'd also take care to place the speakers as close as possible to the Dolby ideal locations. I can help you with that via PM, if you like.

Ken

 

[bonzo]

I have heard a 7 speaker atmos, small set up with basic b&w and Pioneer. And a few high end auros. Was impressed by all. What stood out in auro 3d was the voice of God channel, which is directly overhead. When activated it takes the system to another level, without it the system sounds much flatter. It also adds the effect of depth from the stage.

 

[JohnLomnicki]

Ken - Thanks for sharing your experience.

I'm going to follow the Dolby Atmos specifications for my 7.2.4 setup. I'll start first with placing some Motion 4 speakers in the recommended location and go from there. Luckly I can borrow 4 Motion 4 speakers from a friend and get them where they need to go before remodeling.

I'll start there and see where I can go. I'm getting close to blowing my budget already for this year.....

 

[JohnLomnicki]

I was able to listen to the Vanquish last night. I must say that they are the nicest ceiling speakers that I've heard. Still going with the borrow first and then buy, but Vanquish are on my list of viable options for the in ceiling Atmos speakers. Also doesn't hurt that the borrow option is $0 and the Vanquish idea is well above that....

My wife does like the idea of having more speakers in the room without having to see more speakers in the room. Apparently she is starting to notice how many speakers are in the 7.2.4 setup....

 

[JohnLomnicki]

I've been listening to the Motion 4 speakers now for a few days. They are by far the weakest of the speakers in the system, but then again they are a fraction of the price and size of every other speaker I have.

Comparing these Motion 4 speakers to the rest of the speakers in a Stereo setup they were pretty close to the Scripts but still lacked in the lower ranges.

I do like the Motion 4 speakers as closer surround speakers. They would probably work well as Dolby Atmos height speakers. Similar "Martin Logan" sound that I've come to expect, have a mounting bracket hole, priced right.

Observations so far:
- Place speakers where Dolby tells you to. It could be my imagination, but I feel like I got the best experience when they were in their recommended locations.
- I placed them in each area, calibrated and then listened to a few Atmos pieces.
+ The corners of the room over the rear surrounds and front speakers
+ At the Dolby specified angle, but further out towards the wall
+ At the Dolby specified angle, midway between the front speakers and the sweet spot (Recommended, and my 'best' experience so far)
+ At the Dolby specified angle, practically on top of the listener
- Rooms make a HUGE difference. I moved the Motion 4 speakers around in my office, HT room, bedroom, kitchen and garage. They almost sound like different speakers in each room.
- If you have access to portable dancing polls and some pillows you too can "mount" your speakers temporarily.
- Portable dancing polls are not meant for giant men.
- I have a very patient wife

I should probably put the Motion 4 speakers up on the ceiling and call it a day, but when I was listening to them side by side with the larger speakers in stereo mode, I knew I was missing part of the music. I don't want to do this twice, so I'm going to play around with this some more.

I have some other speakers on the way next week to try out and will give you an update. I want to see if I can get more up in the ceiling.

 

[GW1800]

John - take a look at member system #504. You and I are going down the same path but you are just a bit earlier. Because of my room I really had no choice but to go with ceiling speakers and after much consideration decided to go with the Vanquish. These are not cheap but they do perform. I would highly recommend these. Another plus is that they virtually disappear once in the room. I just talked to ML and at least for now there is nothing else special coming out for the ceiling ATMOS. Vanquish speakers have a left, right and middle position so I assume for ATMOS use the middle selection.

 

[JohnLomnicki]

Thanks, GW1800 - I'll check it out.

 

[tns]

Any suggestions for speakers to update a current 5.1 speaker system? I have Electromotion ESL up front, C2 in center, Dynamo 700, and two FX2 in surround position. Need to decide on rear and ATMOS/DTS-x speakers.

 

[JohnLomnicki]

For your setup, I would seriously consider any of the Logans that have the folded motion tweeter. For my setup, the Atmos speakers will be aimed at the sweet spot 5-6 feet away. Because I have acoustic treatments in my ceiling, I wound up building my own speakers for my 4 Atmos speakers.

For my setup, I'm optimizing for 1 seat and have a bunch of odd ceiling stuff to worry about. If I had to do it over again, I would have gotten Motion 4s and mounted them to the ceiling and just accepted that they hang from the ceiling. I built full range speakers for the height speakers. Having listened to a few Atmos movies the sound is impressive, but I'm not sure how much if anything I would be missing from having less speaker in the ceiling.

Keep in mind that you are at 5.1 right now and most content comes in with that in mind. As you add more speakers, in my case 7.2.4, the processor has to dynamically create content for all of the extra speakers or they just won't be used.

So I built 4 sweet full range speakers that sound great on 10% of the content I have. I may have some other issue....