Analog Upgrades..... Joey and Dave !!

[twich54]

Well buy now most of you know Joey purchased a few LP's while in Lawrence, but todate he has nothing to play them on. So I thought the viynl nuts in the group could help him spend his money ! he has informed me that he wants to keep his $$$ at or below 3k......we can do that !!

While were on the subject of Analog, I'm in the 'contemplation stge' of my next upgrade............trying to decide which one to do first, an SDS unit for my VPI or a upgraded phono pre, either the ARC PH-7 or the Astethics Rhea. Ok, Viynl geeks given my current status which way would you go first ???

 

[tonyc]

Dave, of course the PH7 would make a larger difference but I have to say that the SDS was a huge step up from the prior VPI PLC (used on my vpi hw 19) and is only 1/6th the cost of the ARC! From what I have heard in store demos (I have heard neither at home) the arc sounds better than the rhea. I like my current PH5 better than the PH3SE I had before.

 

[twich54]

I like my current PH5 better than the PH3SE I had before.

You know Tony, you make a good point, I'm wondering, for those that have heard the difference between the PH-5 and the 7 , how big a difference was there ?? Heck, if I could luck into a nice used PH-5 and pick up an SDS, that could be done for less than half the price of a PH-7 alone.

 

[MiTT]

Dave, of course the PH7 would make a larger difference but I have to say that the SDS was a huge step up from the prior VPI PLC (used on my vpi hw 19) and is only 1/6th the cost of the ARC! From what I have heard in store demos (I have heard neither at home) the arc sounds better than the rhea. I like my current PH5 better than the PH3SE I had before.

Tony, I don't know if you were comparing the PH-5 or the PH-7 to the Rhea. If it was the PH-7, then a fairer comparison would be to the Aesthitix Io (flagship to flagship).

In the case of my phonostage journey I listened to the ARC PH-5 (in a store), the Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 and SFP-1 Signature, BAT PH-10SE and Aesthetix Rhea (all in my system) before deciding on the Rhea. For me the Rhea simply had the largest soundstage, most liquid midrange and was by far the quietest. It even bested the BAT in my otherwise all BAT system.

Dave, you know where my vote is, but then again, you have a long history with ARC gear and I'm sure there would be a synergy with your existing pre-amp that should be considered.

Not that it's a major consideration, but I think the Rhea is pretty sexy looking too.

 

[aliveatfive]

I've heard the PH 5 and, of course, own the 7. The audio sections of both units are very similar. Both use 4 6922s and a FET input stage. The power supplies are where the major differences occur. The 5 is all solid-state, while the 7 uses tubes (3 6h30s) to regulate the power and voltages within the unit. The 7 is somewhat more revealing of details in the recording, and to these ears, sounds "fuller." On a budget, the 5 would be very hard to top. The 7, on the other hand, can hold its own regardless of price.

 

[MiTT]

How to spend Dave and Joey's money...

Dave, I commented on the phonostage above, regarding the SDS - I'm thinking that's likely my next upgrade as we discussed in Lawrence. I haven't heard from anyone who hasn't heard an improvement with the SDS hooked up to their systems.

I've also been giving some thought to a cartridge upgrade (from the Grado Statement to the new Lyra Scalla - a moving magnet design to a moving coil design), but I'll still keep the Grado around

Joey, is a whole different matter. My advise to him is don't even bat an eye about it, go get a VPI Scout and you'll have a perfect platform that can be upgraded at will to a full on Super Scout Master as time and finances dictate. It is THE best reviewed and best selling turntabe in recent history for good reason, it sounds like a million bucks! Get it, listen to your music, next year add an SDS, or a HRX platter and ring clamp, or the outboard HRX motor and flywheel. The possibilities are there and the sound will only get better.

Pretty simple, frankly, I'm surprised he hasn't done it yet (or has he?!?).

Joey, scoot over to Music Direct, hell, they're right in your back yard!:devil:

 

[slowGEEZR]

Joey, I agree with Tim, get the Scout. Dave, I don't see how you could go wrong with either phono amp. But, don't you have an LS26? There may be some synergism between it and the PH7. Besides, they have that "family look"! By the way, have you checked out the Martensen MPS or the Groove Plus phono amps? The latest issue (issue 50) of hi fi + compared them and the PH7 together.

 

[tonyc]

Tony, I don't know if you were comparing the PH-5 or the PH-7 to the Rhea. If it was the PH-7, then a fairer comparison would be to the Aesthitix Io (flagship to flagship).

In the case of my phonostage journey I listened to the ARC PH-5 (in a store), the Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 and SFP-1 Signature, BAT PH-10SE and Aesthetix Rhea (all in my system) before deciding on the Rhea. For me the Rhea simply had the largest soundstage, most liquid midrange and was by far the quietest. It even bested the BAT in my otherwise all BAT system.

Dave, you know where my vote is, but then again, you have a long history with ARC gear and I'm sure there would be a synergy with your existing pre-amp that should be considered.

Not that it's a major consideration, but I think the Rhea is pretty sexy looking too.

Tim it certainly was not a "fair" comparison. I heard the PH7 in an all ARC system on Watt/Puppies and the Rhea in a sytem which included the Calypso, the Rhea, I believe a Boulder amp with Honkin big JM Labs something Utopias. Different turntables, different cartridges, different rooms, different cities, etc. As you know I am totally into ARC gear!

 

[MiTT]

Tim it certainly was not a "fair" comparison. I heard the PH7 in an all ARC system on Watt/Puppies and the Rhea in a sytem which included the Calypso, the Rhea, I believe a Boulder amp with Honkin big JM Labs something Utopias. Different turntables, different cartridges, different rooms, different cities, etc. As you know I am totally into ARC gear!

Yeah, in my case the ARC was in a different system too, so I also should disqualify it from my evaluation if employing a scientific method.

I love the Rhea in my system, but as I said, Dave's already got an ARC pre-amp, so I suspect as slowgezer mentione that the synergy would be hard to overcome. Although I don't own any ARC gear myself, I've always been a fan of the sound that they produce.

 

[raygunn]

My $.02 (did you really think I could stay away from an analog thread?!?!)

Hi Dave, I just popped over to your system to refresh my memory on what your analog rig is looking like and I would agree, the SDS is clearly a sonic improvement in making the VPI more "pacey" (is that even a word??).
Hint. Look at the drive motors offered by Teres, for example.

The very low torque motors that VPI uses give the table a dark and deader-than-life sound. The SDS seems to improve that situation a bit. Still a higher torque (non-VPI) drive is even more desireable, IMHO.

As far as your tonearm/cart combo is concerned, I think you're doing pretty well there and I would suggest that you could get substantial improvement only of you spend substantial buckeroos on a ZYX Universe, R1000, or R100 model. I use an elder cousin of the R1000, the Accuphase AC3 and it is fast, neutral, and honest in reproduction. Since you're an ML owner, I'm sure you can relate to the description .

I apologize in advance to those with wood-bodied carts from Benz, Grado, or Koetsu. Yeah, they sound warm and fuzzy, but it's not the truth. I've had a few of those and I know it's intoxicating, but in the end the truth wins out, IMHO.

As far as phono stages go, I would agree with what has been said. You could indeed do much better than a stock ARC PH3. I know. I had one for a brief period of time. ARC tried to correct some of it's problems with the "SE" edition, but in my opinion it was a lost cause. There are 2 phono preamps that have not been mentioned thus far that I think would be excellent choices, the Art Audio Vinyl One or Art Audio Vinyl Reference (two very different designs, but both are sonic gems). The cool thing about either of these is that they are standalone phono stages with volume controls. So they need not go through a line stage.

Also, if you are not allergic to solid state, I would suggest my current main squeeze, the ASR Mini Basis Exclusive (new AD 843SQ Mil spec chips). This phono stage may be solid state, but it has a heart and soul of vaccuum tubes. It handily beat out my Melos Reference Phono which was a Class "A" component in its day. It's quiet, clean, throws a sound stage wider and deeper than anything I have heard, has iron fisted authority in the bottom end, has the sweet and supple midrange of a great tube preamp. Go figure. Also, with up to 70DB of gain, it'll handle any cartridge ever produced. Even if it has only .05mv output!

Well, that's my $.02 for now.
Enjoy the hunt, Dave!

Cheers,
Ray

 

[raygunn]

Spending Joey's money...

...Joey, is a whole different matter. My advise to him is don't even bat an eye about it, go get a VPI Scout and you'll have a perfect platform that can be upgraded at will to a full on Super Scout Master as time and finances dictate. It is THE best reviewed and best selling turntabe in recent history for good reason, it sounds like a million bucks! Get it, listen to your music, next year add an SDS, or a HRX platter and ring clamp, or the outboard HRX motor and flywheel. The possibilities are there and the sound will only get better.

Pretty simple, frankly, I'm surprised he hasn't done it yet (or has he?!?).

Joey, scoot over to Music Direct, hell, they're right in your back yard!:devil:

I would agree, the Scout is an excellent platform. Still, since Joey is a "newbie" to vinyl and may not ultimately find it worth pursuing since he has no software, it may be wise to consider a step down from the Scout.
Also, a unipivot tonearm like the VPI may be a tad "tweaky" for a newbie.

Other great starters would be a used TNT or TNT Jr., used HW19mkIV (poor man's TNT Jr.), or even an HW19 MK3.

Cheers,
Ray

 

[twich54]

Gentlemen, Thanks for the replies !! Ray, I have heard the same thoughts from others on the VPI motors as well, but regardless I still think the SDS would be a wise investment, if not right now certianlly down the road. The 'synergy' thing Tim, Steve and Tony talk about is one that I too tend to agree with, besides I'm not 'getting sick' listening through my PH-3, I just know that the Aries 3 could certianlly benifit from a better phono stage. I think I will stop into Overture later in the week and have a 'chat' with Terry.

With respect to Joey I tend to lean towards the VPI Scout as well, as far as the uni-pivot arm is concerned in some ways I think it's the easiest to setup for cartridge mounting is a snap considering one can remove the arm so easily ! I will admit Azimuth adj does/can try ones patience though ! Besides I'm sure given Joeys location in the Chgo area he can locate a good 'helping hand' in the analog community. So a Scout, decent cartridge (Sumiko Bluepoint Evo#3, Benz Micro Ace, to name but a couple), VPI 16.5 vacuum machine, cleaning supplies = Less than $3000 !!

 

[Joey_V]

Thanks for the input guys!

Like many have said, I think the table for me is the Scout and work from there. I will most certainly keep you guys posted.. especially Tim, the harbringer of all that is spendy! And Dave... and Ray... ah what the hell... everyone of you guys are just plain evil one way or another.

As for Dave, I'm going to keep my mouth shut because I have the least amount of vinyl experience on this thread at this moment in time!!

Joey

 

[yogibear]

Instead of a SDS, why not consider a PS Audio Power Plant? You can set it at 60hz and power your turntable and the rest of your system through it, even your Martin Logans. This way everything gets clean power.

 

[twich54]

Instead of a SDS, why not consider a PS Audio Power Plant? You can set it at 60hz and power your turntable and the rest of your system through it, even your Martin Logans. This way everything gets clean power.

YogiBear, while this idea does have merit, it does add significantly to the price. The other factor is the SDS unit while soley used for the TT does provide platter speed switching from 33 to 45 as an added convienence. Again with both units performing a 'regeneration' process in order to handle all my variuos componets I would have to go to the P600.

 

[yogibear]

A used P600 can be had on Audiogon for not much more than a used SDS. If you don't spin a lot of 45's or don't mind manually switching the belt to the appropriate pully, then I think the entire system will benefit more with a Power Plant. As an added bonus, the bass of my ML Vantages really benefitted from the Power Plant.

 

[MiTT]

YogiBear, while this idea does have merit, it does add significantly to the price. The other factor is the SDS unit while soley used for the TT does provide platter speed switching from 33 to 45 as an added convienence. Again with both units performing a 'regeneration' process in order to handle all my variuos componets I would have to go to the P600.

Yeah Dave, you said it. Not only does it offer speed switching, but pitch control as well should you ever want to play with that (can't think of a good reason why you might want to but, yeah, sure, I want that). I've got a LOT of 45 rpm pressings, especially lately since both Acoustic Sounds and Classic Records are doing alot of re-issues as 45. I've already got a PS600, and I do indeed have the motor for my Aries plugged in to it, but being able to doubly isolate the motor, plus change speed without having to move the belt on the pully system is my primary reason for wanting an SDS.

Another factor to consider is that I've set my PS 600 up to be optimised for my tubed electronics. That setting on the PS600 is NOT the optimum setting for AC motors, so you would always be optimizing for one or the other, but not both since the outlets are not idependently addressable.

 

[yogibear]

Yes, ideally I would like have both a P600 and a SDS but the price would then go through the roof. If I could only have one, I think the P600 is more versatile. btw, i just checked on Audiogon. A P600 is being sold at $825. There currently are no SDS units listed but I remember them being around $700-750 used.

 

[SundayNiagara]

New guy here. I've always been a SOTA fan. Would hope Joey would consider a SOTA. I saw a couple on Audiogon just recently.

 

[tonyc]

Dave, I recently saw a "demo" SDS offered from one of the mail order houses(I can't remember if it was music direct, elusive disc, toddthe vinyljunkie or acoustic sounds) with full warranty for 750 with free shipping. As an aside I tried a PS rgenerator in my system and my ARC preamp did not like it at all. It was the smaller one and I think the preamp was current starved or something-it was a match made in hell and partly the reason I ended up with a Hydra 8.