Amp question Ss or tube?

[School]

hello everyone I just recently purchased a pair of esl15a and was wondering what you recommend for amplification. I currently have Roger sanders Magtech. Roger said it’s the best amp in the market for electrostatic speakers but my mom and pop show is recommending a tube amp from McIntosh. My phono stage is a McIntosh c22. What do you all think

 

[Russr]

The subject line is a terribly subjective call... some folks love the sound of tubes, some don't.
What IS pretty well established here is that the Sanders Magtech (even MORE so than the "ESL" amp) is ideally suited to driving ESLs, and it is unlikely you will find another amp that is more technically capable. You will not experience any compatibility issues with the 15's and the Magtech.

Now, you, or others, MIGHT say "Oh, XYZ amp is more musical, warmer, etc., etc., etc., ... THAT is entirely up to you and your ears. If your "Mom & Pop" store DIDN'T sell McIntosh and were recommending it, that's a slightly different story, but I would negate anything they say if they're looking to sell you something/move inventory. I don't know the nature of your relationship, but I would have to consider a conflict of interest here.

My $0.02 would be stick with the Magtech, have everything burn in, sit back and enjoy. If you decide to take another route, and are looking for a good home for the Magtech, I'm your man (I can probably get enough $$$ together to cover shipping!)

Enjoy your system!

 

[Steelhead]

Only you can answer the question.

Me, no question, tubes for sure. You, maybe not.

I have 15a's and use Manley 100/200 monoblocks. I have a BHK 250 hybrid as a backup so can and do run both types on my system. I prefer and use the tube setup but have a tube preamp so that is probably a contributing factor. In my system it's tubes but the BHK is a very nice amp and I would have no problem living with it if it was my only choice.

Massive respect for Mr. Sanders and can't imagine better solid state without major money.

Have Fun!!!!

 

[ttocs]

I have never heard a Sanders amp, but I've never heard anyone say they were disappointed with one and wanted to get rid of it. I think this is a very good endorsement for Sanders amps!

 

[Leporello]

It's true that what speakers you like and what amp you like to power them with is ultimately a subjective thing. But they are governed by some objective principles of physics. One of them is that Martin Logan ESL's--particularly the full range models--have impedance curves whose magnitudes dip abusively low. Another is that a standard tube amp has one component in particular that you are fighting against in order to achieve the low effective impedance you need in order to realize the speakers' and amp's designed frequency response: the output transformer. In the first place a high turns ratio (primary to secondary) inherently introduces impedance of its own. In the second place, its phase shift--even the best ones--limits the amount of negative feedback that can be applied and remain stable in order to reduce the effective impedance.

Some McIntosh tube amps employ a special split load (cathode-plate) OTL and this may help with the impedance. With the 15 hybrids it is my understanding you are only driving the panels, which may be more forgiving impedance-wise than a full range panel. From my experience driving CLS-II's with a classic tube amp (Latino M125's, which is a new design by Bob Latino but employs a classic Dynaco transformer design from the 1960's, presumably the Mark VI) I would definitely not recommend it. It sounded not "warm" but just plain rolled off to me. I will say that after I finished building the first monoblock and hooked it up to one of the ML Ascents stored in my workshop room, it sounded OK. The panel area of the Ascents is a fraction of that of the CLS II. The 15 panels are bigger than the Ascents, smaller than the CLS.

If you like your Sanders amp I suggest sticking with it. The argument that you need a tube amp to mate with your Mac tube preamp is not a good one.

 

[Leporello]

Only you can answer the question.

Me, no question, tubes for sure. You, maybe not.

I have 15a's and use Manley 100/200 monoblocks. I have a BHK 250 hybrid as a backup so can and do run both types on my system. I prefer and use the tube setup but have a tube preamp so that is probably a contributing factor. In my system it's tubes but the BHK is a very nice amp and I would have no problem living with it if it was my only choice.

Massive respect for Mr. Sanders and can't imagine better solid state without major money.

Have Fun!!!!

David Manley, in his "Vacuum Tube Logic Book", boasts of the quality of his bifilar wound OTL's. The OTL is the Achilles Heel of a classic tube power amp, so maybe his special transformers help. Paul McGowan, the designer of the BHK-250, is not a fan of tube outputs, but likes them hybridized with a tube front end and SS output. So in either case, you're probably avoiding the problems I pointed out in my post below.

I have fond memories of a system in a showroom with Quad ESL-63's driven by Conrad-Johnson power amps. I had brought in my Hogwood recording of Mozart's Requiem and it sounded just stunning. But Quads are not Martin-Logans. The audiophile wisdom that *all* ESL's sound great with *all* tube amps needs to be challenged, IMO.

 

[School]

David Manley, in his "Vacuum Tube Logic Book", boasts of the quality of his bifilar wound OTL's. The OTL is the Achilles Heel of a classic tube power amp, so maybe his special transformers help. Paul McGowan, the designer of the BHK-250, is not a fan of tube outputs, but likes them hybridized with a tube front end and SS output. So in either case, you're probably avoiding the problems I pointed out in my post below.

I have fond memories of a system in a showroom with Quad ESL-63's driven by Conrad-Johnson power amps. I had brought in my Hogwood recording of Mozart's Requiem and it sounded just stunning. But Quads are not Martin-Logans. The audiophile wisdom that *all* ESL's sound great with *all* tube amps needs to be challenged, IMO.

So I take it I should stick with the Sanders and wonder what a tube amp would sound like on the 15s?

 

[Lightloopy]

The Sanders is a highly respected amp and would hang on to that and explore high quality tube magic on your 15's.
I love high power tube amps with my 11A's and use early series VTL MB 250 and now MB 450's. Other members have used CJ Classic 120's which are able to handle the stats. In my travels I also have acquired a McIntosh MC1502 which I use intermittently and as a back up in case the old VTL's go down. It is very different from the VTL's on the cooler more analytical side. I like it but the VTL's have a "special sauce".

If you are looking at a Mac, definitely audition prior to purchase, and listen to other candidates if possible.
Enjoy those magnificent speakers!

 

[ttocs]

So I take it I should stick with the Sanders and wonder what a tube amp would sound like on the 15s?

Well, if one has a question, it will always be a question until one can find an answer or forget the question.

I loved using my Bob Latino M-125 tube monos with my 13A speakers for two years plus. Soundstage was absolutely real and fabulous!! But, I missed the sparkle I got with solid state due to rolloff in the upper frequencies because my tube amps didn't handle the low impedance very well.

That sparkle I wanted didn't get realized until I bought my current Krell amp. The soundstage isn't quite as glorious as with the tube amps, but overall I love the Krell DUO XD more.

I answered questions I had, like, how would tube amps sound? and, what about mono amps? Well, I spent a few grand and found out. I'm happy with what I now have.

I will say however, that the tube amps others have mentioned are much better matches to our stats than my M-125 amps. I came close to buying Conrad-Johnson, which was very impressive!

 

[Leporello]

So I take it I should stick with the Sanders and wonder what a tube amp would sound like on the 15s?

If you're that curious, see if you can borrow one. But all tube amplifiers are not the same, any more than all amplifiers are the same. If you have an amp you're happy with now, I would be inclined to keep it. Don't go chasing some abstraction of "tube amplifier" people are raving about, you'll be disappointed. I will say the Latino monoblock kits (plus the joy of building them myself) set me back a lot less money than the amps you are talking about would. If your "mom and pop" dealer wants to make the sale they should definitely be willing to make a loan, or a full money-back guarantee.. If they aren't, I wouldn't trust them.

Also, see Steve Gutenberg's recent Audiophilliac video on being a contented audiophile.

 

[DanR]

If you are really looking for a tube amp that will WORK with the 13A these will do the job. This guy pulled the add down but may still have this pair. They VERY RARELY come up for sale, and when it’s time to re-tube these beauties bud you better break your wallet out, or consider a second mortgage
There are 9 pics of the amps at the very bottom of the ad.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649985945-wolcott-presence-p220-monoblocks/