Advice for new ML owner

[Jungle Jack]

"...best bang for the buck AVR's of all time"
All Time?!?!? Okay...if you say so.

All the marketing poop in the world about this and that does not make a component compatible for what a user is looking for in the way of sound.

We are all arguing about how we want something to sound instead of congratulating the user on their new speakers and helping them down their initial path.

For starters using the ATF technology with a receiver is a great place to start. Many different companies to choose from as other noted. But in the end it really does not matter what any of us here think about a receiver and their sound. If the OP likes the sound with their speakers, that is what really matters and they should try it out to see for themselves.

Now when they want to improve their rig in terms of sound quality there are many here to help them in speaker and component upgrades.

From my first post on this thread, all I have tried to do is address what he had asked in his post, advice for a AVR in the 6-900 Dollar range.
As I had alluded to in a earlier post, the Design Series were designed with AVR's in mind and present a less challenging load to a accompanying amplifier. Never, did I imply that there is something wrong with the Design Series. In fact, I am currently using Montages as Surrounds in my main system.

With that in mind, and the fact that this is a HT setup, I recommended one of the upper range Onkyo AVR's. In addition, I provided multiple links from professional reviewers which included measurements of the amplifiers output.

For whatever reason, this recommendation was met with anecdotal protestations of Onkyo not being worthy of HTIB mini speakers and dainty emoticons. And culminating in derision and sarcasm and the implication that I have fallen for marketing propaganda. Strange considering I provided links from multiple publications echoing my assertions.

Given the target budget, separates are simply not possible. Given this is a 5.1 system, HT obviously seems to be important. And yes, considering the MSRP, the Onkyo TX-SR805 is one of the best value AVR's of all time. Name one AVR which meets THX's Ultra2 spec for under a grand. While many might not be fans of THX, the Ultra2 spec is fairly challenging and prior to the 805, the only AVR's which were Ultra2 certified cost around 2 grand.

 

[Rich]

Mark,

I don't understand why you are getting so defensive. You like this receiver and made a good case presenting its advantages at that price point. Others feel differently. It's all opinion. No need to get your nose out of joint because others disagree with your opinion. Providing links to online reviews doesn't necessarily do a lot to bolster your view. When was the last time you read a reviewer say: "this receiver is a piece of crap, but its cheap so i would highly recommend it at that price point." They are usually glowing and positive reviews, even of cheap gear. So it is hard to put too much stock in their conclusions.

Honestly, the "all channels driven" report you linked to didn't give me any warm fuzzies about this receiver. They showed that it reaches one percent distortion at a mere 150 wpc of output, with all channels driven into an eight ohm load. That is horrible for a modern solid state amp. Given that the montages are a five ohm load, I would be concerned about the distortion characteristics of this receiver.

But ultimately, you are right. At this price point, there really isn't a lot of quality new components to choose from. You recommend this one. Others feel that Yamaha or some other brand may offer better quality for the money. I don't think anyone is questioning your integrity; they are just disagreeing with your conclusions. Such is the way it is in an online forum. As Dan said, it is really up to the O.P. to get out and demo some of the recommendations and decide for themselves what they want.

 

[Niko]

I have spent some time the last few days to listen to different receivers and so far the one that stood out for me was the Marantz 6003. I have yet to listen to an Outlaw product, it would be a little difficult since there's no showroom to get a live demonstration anywhere. I don't think my budget would allow for separates at this time since my budget is now set at $1,000 - it doesn't change the game much.
Thanks for all the info from everyone, it really helps.
One good thing is that one of the local dealers offered me to bring my Logans in to connect to the Marantz 6003, you guys will probably tell me to go take him up on his offer. I would love to buy their floor model but they're not offering much in the way of a deal. Only reason I'd buy from a dealer is to get the factory warranty (hence Marantz's warning on their website about warranties) - not like everyone here is shaking in their boots over a warranty when they buy used, right?

 

[TomD]

One good thing is that one of the local dealers offered me to bring my Logans in to connect to the Marantz 6003

Just want to share my experience about in-house demos. When i auditioned the logans that i eventually purchased, it was with electronics that were out of my fantasy (at the time). However, they did not sound all that great.

After setting them up at home, and running with a 125W@8 ohms Yamaha 5.1 receiver, they sounded incredible. Much better than in the showroom with all that fancy equipment.

Just wanted to share that experience if you decide to bring your speakers to the showroom. I think it will be significantly better if you can take the Marantz to your home. The surroundings can have a significant impact on the sound, good or bad.

Most dealers give a 30-day, or at least some time, to audition. Even a dealer like best buy might be able to help. Check out their better equipment to get some sort of baseline or reference to compare to the Marantz that you have targeted. I am not sure what they have, but if you have access to a Magnolia you may be able to find some nice gear; and i am pretty sure that they allow auditions.

Hope you enjoy your search and best of luck with your decision.

 

[Rvega003]

I know continuing this might cause problems, but I'm a firm beliver in just putting it all out their (better that than an ulcer).

THX specs are 100% marketing, it a license for christ sake. Do Pass labs, Audio research, Mcintosh, Krell, etc. build all their stuff to official to THX specs. I saw the Phantom Menace, so in hindsight George Lucas' approval of my system is something I can live without. By the way are Martin Logan's THX certified, nope, but Klispch has some THX monitors that I would never trade my Logan's for even based purely on surround sound playback

 

[Rvega003]

By the way Mark under a grand I would take a Yamaha Rxv1900 way over the Onkyo (the can be had new from dealers for that price and they will play ball).

 

[Jungle Jack]

"...best bang for the buck AVR's of all time"
All Time?!?!? Okay...if you say so.

All the marketing poop in the world about this and that does not make a component compatible for what a user is looking for in the way of sound.

"A Yamaha claiming 30 watts per channel less took far better command of a pair speakers than that unit did. Where not driving micro satellites, where driving Logan and it's the true power that counts."

Rich,
Perhaps I am way off base, but those comments in addition to the nifty puking emoticon are why I took umbrage. All I intended to do was give a recommendation. Nothing more, nothing less. I certainly did not critique others recommendations and imply they have fallen for marketing hype.

Across a wide section of professional and enthusiast sites, the TX-SR805 engendered a great deal of enthusiasm. The link for all channels driven at minimum proves it meets the rated output, a rarity in AVR's.
Also, here is another measurement of the amp section: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2463/test-bench-onkyo-tx-sr875-av-receiver.html

THX is not 100% marketing hype. More like 85%. The Ultra spec at minimum, means a AVR can handle 3.2 ohms ACD.
Also, Boundary Gain Compensation is quite useful. Of course that does not mean that amazing high end products that are not certified are worse than THX certified gear.

In addition, that is an apples to oranges comparison. You are comparing HT gear to high end 2 channel gear. Again, this is about an AVR. A category which usually wildly overstates amplifier ratings.
ML

 

[Mantana]

"...best bang for the buck AVR's of all time"
All Time?!?!? Okay...if you say so.

All the marketing poop in the world about this and that does not make a component compatible for what a user is looking for in the way of sound.

"A Yamaha claiming 30 watts per channel less took far better command of a pair speakers than that unit did. Where not driving micro satellites, where driving Logan and it's the true power that counts."

Rich,
Perhaps I am way off base, but those comments in addition to the nifty puking emoticon are why I took umbrage. All I intended to do was give a recommendation. Nothing more, nothing less. I certainly did not critique others recommendations and imply they have fallen for marketing hype.

Across a wide section of professional and enthusiast sites, the TX-SR805 engendered a great deal of enthusiasm. The link for all channels driven at minimum proves it meets the rated output, a rarity in AVR's.
Also, here is another measurement of the amp section: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2463/test-bench-onkyo-tx-sr875-av-receiver.html

THX is not 100% marketing hype. More like 85%. The Ultra spec at minimum, means a AVR can handle 3.2 ohms ACD.
Also, Boundary Gain Compensation is quite useful. Of course that does not mean that amazing high end products that are not certified are worse than THX certified gear.

In addition, that is an apples to oranges comparison. You are comparing HT gear to high end 2 channel gear. Again, this is about an AVR. A category which usually wildly overstates amplifier ratings.
ML

Don't worry Mark...anytime you continue to express a viewpoint
different from some of the "audio gods" on this site, that will
elicit comments like "you're falling for marketing hype" and
they'll imply you're naive or ignorant. They will be helpful
at first, then denigrate you when you deign to
challenge their views.

Now my experience with Onkyo is with their Integra line.
Admittedly, it's been 20 years since i compared a Denon
CD player to the Integra. I bought the Denon to replace
a 1st generation Sony. I was immediately disappointed
at the boring, polite sound i was hearing from the Denon.
It seemed to rob all the life from my Vandersteen 2Cs.
I returned it for the Onkyo and was very happy with the
results...nice lively sound, never veiled.
The Onkyo received great reviews at the time in
Sensible Sound and other publications. It still sounds good
today, though i've replaced with a Musical Fidelity. If
Denon still has that laid back, polite sound, maybe some
of these long time Logan owners are right...it might
be a better match with the Logans since they are a lively,
somewhat brighter speaker. The Onkyo may be too much of
a good thing, although I never found my Integra bright sounding
with any cone speakers i ever owned and doubt i would
with my Spires. Again, it's been 20 years since i've
auditioned either brand, but i still read good reviews on
Onkyo's and Integra's HT and 2 channel amps.
Also, i've just skimmed the comments on this thread,
so i haven't looked at the power comparison....

 

[Horchem1972]

I have to agree that people may come across as brash.When I reply, I try and take into account how the other person might take it.If someone suggests a component,I personally find it rude to tell them that they are essentially wrong with words or puking icons.It is their opinion, just as you have your own.Why not just say I prefer the Denon or Outlaw receivers over the Onkyo.It is a much friendlier way to approach the subject and produces far less arguments.As far as receiver go,I would recommend one with pre outs for all your channels.This will allow you to use an outboard amplifier as your budget permits.All three listed are fine products with a differant sonic signature.Good luck with your search.

 

[Gordon]

I've learned quite a bit from the alleged "audio gods" on this site. I came to the Martin Logan Club to learn how to get the best sound possible from the people who have been there and done that. If something was recommended, I used that information for my benefit. Some I agreed with, some I didn't.

It amazes me that someone would get upset when a piece is viewed in a less than stellar way. I know that several of the "audio gods" don't care for the McIntosh line. Don't really care one way or the other.

But, to come on a ML site, ask "I just bought an 8K speaker and it sounds terrible" please help! Come to find out there is 1K AVR trying to do it's job and partially/totally failing, the poster blames the speaker!

"Specs say my AVR (insert any piece here) should be fine and..........." When opinions surface calling a piece into question, based on use or experience, the advice is met with disbelief or downright hostility. I know, nobody like being told their kid is ugly, but sometimes we have an ugly kid!

Everybody has a budget and certain desires in an audio system and that needs to be respected. Most of the advice I've received here has been solid and on speed. It/they was/were trying to help me get the best performance for the dollar spent.

Gordon

 

[twich54]

FWIW, I too have fond respect for the Integra lineup, in all probability one of their receivers will find it's way into my family room HT set-up in the near future. Replacing my fifteen plus year old Onkyo unit that is starting to give me issues, but up untill the past year has performed flawlessly !!

 

[FISH_MAN]

I have learned a lot From the audio Gods even if I have not agreed all the time.

so now it's not OK to use the little icons either Horchem1972 ???

 

[Horchem1972]

I have learned a lot From the audio Gods even if I have not agreed all the time.

so now it's not OK to use the little icons either Horchem1972 ???

You may use them all you want.I simply stated that I found it rude.If you do not like the Onkyo brand that is your opinion and I respect that.What I did not respect is the puking icon you used towards another member of this forums suggestion.If he would of suggested McIntosh would you have answered the same? Please ask yourself would you like someone to reply to your question or suggestion in such a manner? Only you can answer that question honestly.

 

[FISH_MAN]

You may use them all you want.I simply stated that I found it rude.If you do not like the Onkyo brand that is your opinion and I respect that.What I did not respect is the puking icon you used towards another member of this forums suggestion.If he would of suggested McIntosh would you have answered the same? Please ask yourself would you like someone to reply to your question or suggestion in such a manner? Only you can answer that question honestly.

I would have used it if we where talking about Krell's evolution series or Wilsons watt puppies or a pair of B&W speakers I really hate their speakers. you only found it rude because of the other gear I have which is still modest compared to others here I think you automaticalty felt as though I was trying to hi brow another member I used that Icon towards Onkyo not towards another member lets get that straightened out.those Icons are their to show emotion and that's why I used it every piece of Onkyo equipment I have heard has made me want to puke I have even felt an inner ear off balance from a HT system that had Onkyo equipment hooked up to it I think it was almost as if the phase was messed up just to name one experience.

 

[Horchem1972]

If you do not think you could have phrased it in better terms,then we will have to agree to disagree.I believe a little more tact is appropiate,but that is my opinion.I do see the gentlemens point that took exception to the icon you used.I just wish people would take an extra minute to read what they write,and take other people into consideration first.This is not a personal issue,just how I feel.

 

[Rvega003]

I will admit that my posting's on this thread have been rude especially referring towards Onkyo and for that I do not apologize. The reason is quite simple. AV and latter Hifi, while now a high passion hobby was my lively hood. While my overwhelming reaction to going to work was joy (especially at Sound Advice, not so much Brandsmart), being a brutally honest individual I hated having to pretend to like products I couldn't stand. Here's my list of products who's pitch gave me a near hemorrhage.

1) Bose
2) Bose
3) Bose' (that's Bose in Spanish)
4) Any other HTIB
5) Onkyo
6) stand alone mass market DVD players
7) Anything Sony that wasn't of the XBR TV line or a projector
8) furniture
9) Harmony remotes
10) brackets

As a result any positive mention of any brand particular product on that list sends me into know it all, snobbish, tirade that will only cease when my opponents admit that what they thought was quality product, is in fact demon spawn not befitting of Wallmarts' shelf's. Please bear with my irrational rage, as no one can imagine how hard it is to sing the praises of the Bose acoustamass10 with a straight face, or deal with a client that say's the Lifestyle28 is sonically superior to Martin Logan electrostats knowing that its your job not to grab this joker by the neck a slap him till the screw pops back in.

 

[Niko]

I've been looking on Audiogon as some suggested earlier. So I'm back to looking at the Marantz 6003.
I see that there's a used factory refurb someone is selling (only a few weeks old) and there's also a new one for a decent price.
I'm very leery of buying anything with the word "refurbished" on it because of my luck (or lack of). What do you think, is that price tag for the new one worth it?

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
If the SR6003 does it for you, I would not be too weary of purchasing refurbished so long as the warranty is still offered.

Have you had a chance to audition the 6003? It does seem quite up to date and I am quite fond of the industrial design. It only weighs 29.1 Pounds, so I would definitely look into how the 6003 copes with lowish impedance speakers.

While not as difficult as the ESL Series, according to the Stereophile review of the Montage: "The MartinLogan Montage is of just-above-average voltage sensitivity, as an estimated 88.2dB(B)/2.83V/m, which is below the specified 90dB figure. Its impedance plot (fig.1) also indicates that it approaches a 4 ohm load in the midrange and rarely goes above 8 ohms in the treble. The speaker will work best with amplifiers and receivers rated to drive a 4 ohm load."
Cheers,
ML

 

[Niko]

I finally ordered the 6003 a few days ago. Now I can't wait to hook these babies up - it's only been like "forever" looking at these speakers. I was lying to guests telling them they are the new wireless set of MartinLogans:ROFL:
Thank goodness nobody asked to listen.

Speaking of wires, what do you recommend for starters?

 

[Jungle Jack]

Congrats on the Marantz. I am quite fond of Kimber Kable and they offer a full range of offerings. The WBT connectors available as an option are about as good as terminations get. Considering you have to use bananas or bare wire at the receiver end, WBT's locking bananas are excellent and make it all but impossible to come loose and or short out the receiver.

WBT's connectors are also available on other companies cables as well. However, Kimber is the distributor and offers them on most of the range whereas WBT's are usually only available on cables which cost multiples of the cost of your Marantz.

Otherwise, Nordost makes excellent cables and I have had good experiences with them as well. There are tons of other companies as well and I am sure others here will have other ideas as well.

Rvega, equating Blose with Onkyo is absurd. Unlike Blose, Onkyo's measure quite well when their offerings have been tested and the upper line incorporate state of the art parts. Snobbish and without merit.