Stefan
Well-known member
i, personally, would never trust a guy that thinks putting safety pins on your shirt will make your stereo sound better.
Aha, so that's what this punk thing was all about...
A Different Opinion on the CLX
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Aha, so that's what this punk thing was all about...
Don't speak in the absolute.
When you speak in the absolute you leave yourself open to attack
"...it really pays to hear it in your room in your system. Otherwise, you just have no clue how it will sound. "
There are lots of exceptions but most brand names have a sound that is pretty consistent. It is possible to reasonably predict what a component form a particular manufacturer will sound like. My experience with home demos was whether I would still like it after months of listening.
If its that big a difference when you get it home maybe you should get your room treated. Or maybe you have some pretty finicky or cutting edge components.
Gregadd
When you speak in the absolute you leave yourself open to attack
"...it really pays to hear it in your room in your system. Otherwise, you just have no clue how it will sound. "
There are lots of exceptions but most brand names have a sound that is pretty consistent. It is possible to reasonably predict what a component form a particular manufacturer will sound like. My experience with home demos was whether I would still like it after months of listening.
If its that big a difference when you get it home maybe you should get your room treated. Or maybe you have some pretty finicky or cutting edge components.
Gregadd
I disagree. Many acoustic experts believe that the acoustics of the room affect the sound much more than any single component. Also, any particular component (say, an amp) is going to sound very different with different speakers. The "house sound" does not always come through in a predictable fashion. Krell is often criticized as cold and harsh. But I have heard them with Martin Logans, in certain systems, that sound incredibly warm and full, yet detailed. The acoustics of your room and the other components of your system are, in my opinion, going to have a much greater impact on the sound than the "house sound" of a particular component.
Thus, your "reasonable predictions" of what the component will sound like based on your knowledge of the manufacturer's "house sound" are pretty useless in my opinion. You really aren't going to know what it is going to sound like in your system until you get it home, hook it up, burn it in, and listen to it.
tonepub
Senior Member
When you speak in the absolute you leave yourself open to attack
"...it really pays to hear it in your room in your system. Otherwise, you just have no clue how it will sound. "
There are lots of exceptions but most brand names have a sound that is pretty consistent. It is possible to reasonably predict what a component form a particular manufacturer will sound like. My experience with home demos was whether I would still like it after months of listening.
If its that big a difference when you get it home maybe you should get your room treated. Or maybe you have some pretty finicky or cutting edge components.
Gregadd
Attack away, but I'm afraid you're the one with limited experience and it shows by this post. Perhaps saying "no clue" was a bit overzealous.
Yes, I've listened to almost everything now and I can certainly predict how certain components will sound together, all things being equal. But things are rarely ever equal.
First, everyone's room IS different. Even a db or two here or there along the frequency curve will make a drastic change in the end presentation.
Electronics are not as big of a deal as speakers, but again an untreated room will cause enough issues on its own. If a room has major issues, you will never be able to hear enough subtlety to make a good decision on a component, especially when you are listening to things that make a small difference. We've had a few people here that have done some work to their rooms that once they were dialed in, rethought some gear choices.
Second: While many manufacturers have a "house" sound, a lot of that has changed over the years. Just for a few examples, CJ, BAT, ARC and McIntosh have changed quite a bit over the last five years. So what you might "expect" CJ or ARC to sound like, based on what you've heard before could be different than what you you will get with their current models.
Third: Setup. I have heard great components sound terrible and average components sound pretty darn good, depending on setup. Case in point, one of our members here had spent a pretty healthy sum on a pair of CLX's and associated components, but was still left cold. With some help and proper setup, he's got much better sound than he had before.
This can even go as far as cable selection. When we get a component in for review, we try it with a number of different interconnects, speaker cable, etc from about six different mfrs. Some gear is more cable sensitive than others. If you've made a substantial investment in silver cable (that more often than not sounds very detailed and forward), an amp that I think is fairly neutral with the cable I use might be too harsh in your room. At that point you have to decide whether you like the piece enough to buy new cable or not.
Fourth: Hearing. Same as point one. If your hearing varies by more than a db or two than mine or anyone else making an equipment suggestion, it might be way off to them. I know a couple of people with slightly rolled off hearing that love their Wilson Watt Puppies, because that's what sounds correct to them.
Fifth: Unexpected synergies. Every now and then, there is a magical combination that you might never have guessed. Sometimes a system can sound way better than the sum of its parts and you don't know until you hook it all up.
Last but not least, personal preference is a huge factor. I've heard people that like really colored presentations because that's what THEY like.
I've had the best results helping people upgrade their system, hearing their system and trying to find out what they want more or less of, etc. etc.
That's why even the best review can only perk up your interest on a component. Ranting on and on about the best this or that doesn't really help the person looking for new gear.
So again, while I think I have had excellent luck with helping people pick out components, I would still suggest that when making a fairly expensive purchase to try and get an in-home demonstration with a component that has a fair amount of hours on the clock before pulling the trigger, especially with a new purchase, becaue the amount of depreciation is so high.
If you are buying something used on Audiogon, etc., no big deal because if you paid a fair price for it and you hate it, your chances of getting right back out of it are pretty good.
Bernard
Well-known member
Great post, Jeff. All very true.
Ah Jeff you disappoint me.
You start out by admitting I'm right, then attack me.
'...Attack away, but I'm afraid you're the one with limited experience and it shows by this post. Perhaps saying "no clue" was a bit overzealous..."
"Yes, I've listened to almost everything now and I can certainly predict how certain components will sound together, all things being equal. But things are rarely ever equal." Tonepub
You see ,I like most others have neither the time nor the inclination to hear everything.
Surely you have engaged in hyperbole. You have heard every possible permutation of equipment in your system in your home? I might suggest your opinions might be a little sharper if you only listened to the true contenders.
I'll give you a pass on that one.
"I have limited experience?" Who's guilty now of making an uniformed statement. What "pray tell" is my experience Jeff? I'll confess. No I have not heard as much equipment as you. Even Harry Pearson would not claim to have heard everything.
Unlike you Jeff I am not a magazine publisher. Why you are allowed to use this site that is supposed to be a forum for club members to promote your magazine is beyond me. You of course have a vested interest in making friends and appeasing many manufacturers. The more manufactures and members you please, the better for your magazine
I of course, need to appease no one and only need to settle on one musically satisfying system. My own. I share my experiences with my fellow club members in hope that they might achieve better sound. They are free as you are to accept it or ignore it.
The fact of the matter is that most manufactures have a house sound. It's not that they are trying to achieve a certain sound, It's just the result of their design philosophy.
I wholeheartedly disagree that a room is the most important factor in the system. Only one of many factors.
I saw the Rives room with VAC and Talon speakers in two different rooms. one had the Rives treatment the other did not. In my opinion the treated room was much better. I could however live with that system in an untreated room for a long time.
I also visited a room at that same show with Simms amp and cd player and a $3k speaker. The room was completely untreated and the equipment rested on the floor. They did this to make a point. Time after time visitors remarked it was one of the best sounds at the show. I agreed.
I like most have neither the time, access nor inclination to listen to every component and its possible permutations. As I stated earlier I doubt you have either. I have to make a choice based on specs, prior experience, recommendations and reviews(Yes Jeff even your review.) Once Iv'e narrowed the field, then I can evalaute. Do I get surprised and disappointed some times? You bet.
So relax Jeff. You have far more influence on this site than I ever will. I just wish you would stop being so obsequious and and take a stand.
Finally, let me say this I enjoy your mag and find your advice helpful, if not necessarily definitive.
I have to go now. The UPS man just dropped off my moscode.
Gregadd
You start out by admitting I'm right, then attack me.
'...Attack away, but I'm afraid you're the one with limited experience and it shows by this post. Perhaps saying "no clue" was a bit overzealous..."
"Yes, I've listened to almost everything now and I can certainly predict how certain components will sound together, all things being equal. But things are rarely ever equal." Tonepub
You see ,I like most others have neither the time nor the inclination to hear everything.
Surely you have engaged in hyperbole. You have heard every possible permutation of equipment in your system in your home? I might suggest your opinions might be a little sharper if you only listened to the true contenders.
I'll give you a pass on that one.
"I have limited experience?" Who's guilty now of making an uniformed statement. What "pray tell" is my experience Jeff? I'll confess. No I have not heard as much equipment as you. Even Harry Pearson would not claim to have heard everything.
Unlike you Jeff I am not a magazine publisher. Why you are allowed to use this site that is supposed to be a forum for club members to promote your magazine is beyond me. You of course have a vested interest in making friends and appeasing many manufacturers. The more manufactures and members you please, the better for your magazine
I of course, need to appease no one and only need to settle on one musically satisfying system. My own. I share my experiences with my fellow club members in hope that they might achieve better sound. They are free as you are to accept it or ignore it.
The fact of the matter is that most manufactures have a house sound. It's not that they are trying to achieve a certain sound, It's just the result of their design philosophy.
I wholeheartedly disagree that a room is the most important factor in the system. Only one of many factors.
I saw the Rives room with VAC and Talon speakers in two different rooms. one had the Rives treatment the other did not. In my opinion the treated room was much better. I could however live with that system in an untreated room for a long time.
I also visited a room at that same show with Simms amp and cd player and a $3k speaker. The room was completely untreated and the equipment rested on the floor. They did this to make a point. Time after time visitors remarked it was one of the best sounds at the show. I agreed.
I like most have neither the time, access nor inclination to listen to every component and its possible permutations. As I stated earlier I doubt you have either. I have to make a choice based on specs, prior experience, recommendations and reviews(Yes Jeff even your review.) Once Iv'e narrowed the field, then I can evalaute. Do I get surprised and disappointed some times? You bet.
So relax Jeff. You have far more influence on this site than I ever will. I just wish you would stop being so obsequious and and take a stand.
Finally, let me say this I enjoy your mag and find your advice helpful, if not necessarily definitive.
I have to go now. The UPS man just dropped off my moscode.
Gregadd
Bernard
Well-known member
"In the spirit of civility" with a touch of sarcasm, and a friendly emoticon. Recipe for....who know what! Now all we need is to port Justin over after he has had one too many, as he is wont to do (by his own admission!).jeff, bernard, rich.
Could you please assist me in arranging a home demo of the Anniversary ML CLX and the ARC Ref3. I have been unable to do it on my own.:music:
gregadd
There goes this thread - heading for hell in a handbasket. Time to back up and take a deep breath, methinks ! Let's not take the fun out of this site.
jeff, bernard, rich.
Could you please assist me in arranging a home demo of the Anniversary ML CLX and the ARC Ref3. I have been unable to do it on my own.:music:
gregadd
Absolutely, gregadd. Since I have the Arc Ref 3 in a well-treated room, Jeff can just use his influence to convince ML to ship a pair of CLX out here and you can have a home demo in my home.
(Don't forget to bring your Moscode. I would love to compare it to the Premier 140.).
tonepub
Senior Member
So what's your point?
If you find our magazine helpful but not definitive, that's about all there is to it.
I think you are the one that started off telling the people in this club that most of us weren't listening to good gear in the first place...
Tom and I have talked on more than a few occasions about me being here and I have always deferred to his wishes; it's his site. Other than six posts a year letting people know that the new issue is done, I don't see where I'm using this site to promote TONE. I get about 160 click throughs a month and we have 160 thousand readers in 119 countries.
I spend most of my time here answering people's questions about hifi stuff.
If you find our magazine helpful but not definitive, that's about all there is to it.
I think you are the one that started off telling the people in this club that most of us weren't listening to good gear in the first place...
Tom and I have talked on more than a few occasions about me being here and I have always deferred to his wishes; it's his site. Other than six posts a year letting people know that the new issue is done, I don't see where I'm using this site to promote TONE. I get about 160 click throughs a month and we have 160 thousand readers in 119 countries.
I spend most of my time here answering people's questions about hifi stuff.
We both had our say.
Let's move on.
I listened to a good interview with Allen Perkins of Spiral Grove. Quite an American success story.
I like your Lyra Scala and the Triplanar. How did you decide to put them together. $20k for the SG-2? Hmmm.
Gregadd
Let's move on.
I listened to a good interview with Allen Perkins of Spiral Grove. Quite an American success story.
I like your Lyra Scala and the Triplanar. How did you decide to put them together. $20k for the SG-2? Hmmm.
Gregadd
tonepub
Senior Member
It was the tonearm that Allen suggested. Because of the large platter, you can't use a normal SME, the pivot to spindle distance is too short. Perhaps a 12" SME would work with the right arm board, but it gave me a chance to try the Triplanar.
Awesome combination and I liked it even better than the Continuum. Happy to say it's now my top reference table, though the Raven Two is still darn good with a pair of SME arms... Thinking of putting a 12" on the other armboard in place of the 309.
Allen is a great guy and has fantastic sound in his showroom in SF. The SG-1 is one of the finest tables I've heard at any price and the SG-2 is no slouch either. Very musical and super easy to set up.
Awesome combination and I liked it even better than the Continuum. Happy to say it's now my top reference table, though the Raven Two is still darn good with a pair of SME arms... Thinking of putting a 12" on the other armboard in place of the 309.
Allen is a great guy and has fantastic sound in his showroom in SF. The SG-1 is one of the finest tables I've heard at any price and the SG-2 is no slouch either. Very musical and super easy to set up.
User211
Well-known member
"In the spirit of civility" with a touch of sarcasm, and a friendly emoticon. Recipe for....who know what! Now all we need is to port Justin over after he has had one too many, as he is wont to do (by his own admission!).
There goes this thread - heading for hell in a handbasket. Time to back up and take a deep breath, methinks ! Let's not take the fun out of this site.
I dunno, make one post after too much port - and never live it down! Mind you, it was quite funny
Anyway, I can't afford the decent stuff, like you, Bernard
!And for the record, whilst I like a glass or two, or three
D), it's usually only on a Friday...More generally, it's funny how we are continually finding fault with each other on this site. And we'll never be able to stop it...
"Man is the village animal, united by the force of our loathsome qualities. We are seeking, peeping toms, in revolt against each other". The Villagers, Iggy Pop, Zombie Birdhouse.
Brilliant lyric.
Bernard
Well-known member
If we ever stop, it will be time to leave the site as the fun will be over. :sad:
