Not sure which way to go

I just finished reading "Get Better Sound" by Jim Smith and found it to full of good info. It caused me to look at the layout of the room and according to him, I have the second worst layout possible.

My gear rack is between the speakers and he recommends moving it to the side wall. I can see the reasoning behind it and I'm willing to try it with a couple of concerns.

First, my dedicated circuits are on the short wall so I'd have to get an extension or new PC because I don't think the standard 15 amp circuit would hold the load. I can't pull a new line due to the basement being finished. However, when the house was rewired, all wiring was done with 12 gage so I could convert a 15-20.

Secondly, I will have to buy new speaker wire. One will need to be 23 foot and the other is 17.

So two or three questions:

Convert the 15>20 or a longer PC? Keeping in mind it would share some other household items like lamps and clocks.

Anybody here running speaker wire at that length? My quandry here is I don't want to cheap out and not realize the benefit of moving the gear, nor do I want to be stuck with an expensive wire if it does not pan out.

Any thoughts?

Gordon

here's something you can try, to avoid spending much money.

connect your speakers up with 15 feet or so and standard power cords right where it is. Listen to it for a day (or whatever you need) to get familiar with it, then move your gear to the side wall. With standard power cords and speaker wire, you'll only need an extension cord to hook it up and you can run the speaker cords the appropriate length.

That way you can hear the diff that getting that rack out from between your speakers makes and decide if that is enough of a change to make it worth your while to pursue everything else. There are a few options you can take...

Gordon said:

I just finished reading "Get Better Sound" by Jim Smith and found it to full of good info. It caused me to look at the layout of the room and according to him, I have the second worst layout possible.

My gear rack is between the speakers and he recommends moving it to the side wall. I can see the reasoning behind it and I'm willing to try it with a couple of concerns.

First, my dedicated circuits are on the short wall so I'd have to get an extension or new PC because I don't think the standard 15 amp circuit would hold the load. I can't pull a new line due to the basement being finished. However, when the house was rewired, all wiring was done with 12 gage so I could convert a 15-20.

Secondly, I will have to buy new speaker wire. One will need to be 23 foot and the other is 17.

So two or three questions:

Convert the 15>20 or a longer PC? Keeping in mind it would share some other household items like lamps and clocks.

Anybody here running speaker wire at that length? My quandry here is I don't want to cheap out and not realize the benefit of moving the gear, nor do I want to be stuck with an expensive wire if it does not pan out.

Any thoughts?

Gordon

Click to expand...

Jim's book is an excellent guide but many of his suggestions/dictum are aimed mostly at monopole speakers that radiate from the front. Dipoles, such as our MLs have other considerations.

First, most monopoles would be placed further back, probably in line with or behind an equipment rack. A monopole with 180 degree HF dispersion (such as a dome tweeter) would have it's soundstage "slightly" disturbed by the equipment rack.

A dipole like our ML, when pulled further out from the wall, and haveing a typically "beamy" front dispersion characteristic would not have it's front wave disturbed by the rack.... only the rear wave, assuming the rack front is behind the plane of the speakers. The rack would tend to diffuse the sound of the rear wave. It has been said (and proven in my system) that partially absorbing or diffusing the rear wave help to focus the soundstage. In fact, I use a fake tree behind the right side of my right speaker and a bookshelf behind the left side of the left to accomplish diffusion on the cheap.

The foregoing only applies if you just have a typical audio gear rack. Everything changes if you stick a large TV monitor on that equipment rack. Now you have a big flat plane that will reflect sound and REALLY mess up a sound stage.

Gordon said:

My gear rack is between the speakers and he recommends moving it to the side wall.

Click to expand...

If by "between the speakers" you mean centered on the front wall you face, that's probably a better location than on a side wall. Especially if moving it to the side wall puts the rack in the front half of the room where it will harm left-right symmetry. Before you go to a lot of trouble for nothing, or possibly make things worse, can you post a photo of your room taken from the rear to show the entire front portion?

--Ethan

Ethan Winer said:

If by "between the speakers" you mean centered on the front wall you face, that's probably a better location than on a side wall. Especially if moving it to the side wall puts the rack in the front half of the room where it will harm left-right symmetry. Before you go to a lot of trouble for nothing, or possibly make things worse, can you post a photo of your room taken from the rear to show the entire front portion?

--Ethan

Click to expand...

I just got his book in recently too, very insightful by the way, and thought about doing something similar to what Gordon was thinking. In fact our situations seem very close since moving my rack would require using a longer power cord to plug into my new dedicated circuits. Then it occured to me the same thought Ethan had, that if I moved the rack to the left or right wall it would then affect sounds on those sides. If my room were a few feet wider then it probably wouldn't have been a problem, but being only a little over 13 feet wide it would jut out causing balance issues. If I remember correctly Jim did say that if your speakers are pulled out far enough in front of the rack then it would affect the soundstage minimally. The only other reason to remove it from the middle was to help with the phsycoacoustic effect of a stereo image without being distracted with equipment lights and such. Depending on how tall your rack is I would suggest getting a lower one that would reduce reflections and would help with some of that disbelief. In fact some equipment racks are very low to the floor for similar reasons if I'm not mistaken. Good luck Gordon and hope it works out.

P.S.
Jim's book is definitely worth getting if you haven't already done so.

Glen

tonepub said:

here's something you can try, to avoid spending much money.

connect your speakers up with 15 feet or so and standard power cords right where it is. Listen to it for a day (or whatever you need) to get familiar with it, then move your gear to the side wall. With standard power cords and speaker wire, you'll only need an extension cord to hook it up and you can run the speaker cords the appropriate length.

That way you can hear the diff that getting that rack out from between your speakers makes and decide if that is enough of a change to make it worth your while to pursue everything else. There are a few options you can take...

Click to expand...

That's a very good idea. This way you can see which way works best for you with the soundstage and layout.

Gordon,

I concur with Ethan and Jeff.

Shoot us a pic of you current configuration, depending on rack sizing (ht & width) , space front / back, how close to speakers, etc it may not be that big an issue. Good Lord knows it can't be as bad as having say a big 50" flat panel screen in between.

Jeff's idea to experiment first will give your ears an insight into what you like as well.

twich54 said:

Gordon,

I concur with Ethan and Jeff.

Shoot us a pic of you current configuration, depending on rack sizing (ht & width) , space front / back, how close to speakers, etc it may not be that big an issue. Good Lord knows it can't be as bad as having say a big 50" flat panel screen in between.

Jeff's idea to experiment first will give your ears an insight into what you like as well.

Click to expand...

Dave, thank goodness you mentioned the 50" flat panel. I only have a 46" on top of the rack. That is part of the problem. I've thrown blankets over it but I'm looking for a better solution.

Will try to post a picture. I'm terrible at this easy thing!

Gordon

Gordon said:

I can't pull a new line due to the basement being finished. However, when the house was rewired, all wiring was done with 12 gage so I could convert a 15-20.

Click to expand...

So you've already answered your own question. All you need to do is swap out the outlets on the new wall for 20-amp, and then swap the leads at your service panel between your old, dedicated lines, and the new position lines.

You've already said yyou have 20-amp rated lines in the whole room, so you DON'T need to pull new lines. You just need to swap outlet jacks, and swap the service panel connections.

Bingo, bango, Bob's your uncle...

Proper power to the new position, no need to buy new power cords, speaker cables, or punch holes in walls.

You can send the money you would have spent on new power leads to me, via PayPal as thanks for my consultative services. I'll be forwarding you an invoice toot-suite... :ROFL:

I can't believe nobody else thought of this. Sometimes, boys, throwing lots of money at a problem is NOT the best solution. Sometimes, you just have to work with what you've got, ESPECIALLY if what you've got is already what you really need...

Think "outside the box", not "inside the wallet". It's MUCH more satisfying to be creative...

I tried loading the pictures, I'll have to wait for one of my more talented children to come home to help out the old man.

I was stoked to try this and took some of the suggestions mentioned here. First I went to Lowes and got 50 ft of 12 g wire. It is the outdoor lighting type wire and cut them to length of 25 ft each for this experiment. I had them laid out on the floor for a couple days in a "S" shape. Did not go over well with wife! The dog kept getting tangled up in them. I was using the Mapleshades line of speaker wire and I must admit, these $9.00 wires from Lowes sound pretty darn good. I can honestly say I like them as well if not better than the MS.

I was able to get a friend to come over help me move the rack and TV which were between the speakers to the right side wall. So now on the front wall I have the speakers, 2 HF traps behind and 2 tri traps on the floor in the corners. I did not go through the effort of swapping outlets and breakers. The room, which is the living room, now appears cluttered in 2/3 of it with large void in the other 1/3 where the rack used to be. Visually the room does not look right but that was not a concern at this point.

Moving the rack and TV has so far yielded a very positive return. There was and still is a slight bass peak in the front of the room which was I believe was impacting the gear. Perhaps the bass was vibrating my tubes or transport impacting dynamics? In addition, the bass now seems a bit more defined, not night and day, but certainly noticeable. Center stage singers stay in the center and not float from left to right which was probably a result of the TV being dead center. Blankets over it helped but not like getting it out of there.

All in all, I think it was well worth the effort to try this. Having the rack on the side wall provides a night and day "overall" presentation which I certainly prefer over the rack and TV in the center. I'm not certain it can stay like this due to the room being used for other things. We're going to try it for another week or two and see if it works for our situation.

Gordon