Is Martin Logan really for me?

Hello,
For several months I've been looking into taking the plunge and buying my first real home theater system. I've done a significant amount of research, and been focusing mostly on ML speakers. I've seen them in person, they look great, they sound amazing, and I pretty much instantly thought "I need these."

Now, after six long months, I'm finally ready to make a purchase, and want to make sure I don't regret my decision. I'm an electronics geek, so complicated stuff isn't new to me. I have some concerns about setting up the speakers for optimal performance, but I think I'll manage with that. Also, I've heard people talk about installing new panels after a few years, and that sounds a little bit daunting, how do you get new panels, how much do they cost, and are they hard to install? My last concern is that my speakers will be in a room with windows, and will almost certainly be getting some sunlight. Is that really that bad for them, or should I not worry about it?

Lastly, and probably most importantly, is price. I'm willing to splurge for a Martin Logan setup if I know it's really worth it, but it's too much money to not be extremely happy with my purchase. If I'm having cold feet, should I go with cheaper traditional speakers, or is Martin Logan really that phenomenal, even for a newbie like me?

Thanks

If you are looking for objective, critical evaluation of your dilemma, you have come to the wrong place. But if you are looking for a bunch of like-minded lunatics to confirm an already-made decision to spend way too much money on an incredible home theater system, then: Welcome!

Seriously, though, MLs make great home theater speakers and incredible music speakers. They do require some care in setup and some quality associated components to perform their best, but the same can be said of most high-end speakers. You don't really mention music. If you are just setting up this system for home theater, I'm not sure it justifies the cost of MLs. There are lots of less-expensive, but adequate, speakers for home theater. But if sound quality is of utmost importance to you, and if music is also part of your system plans, then you cannot go wrong with MLs.

If you take care of your speakers you shouldn't have to replace the panels for 15 or 20 years, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. And it is not that difficult to do anyway.

Direct Sunlight is definitely harmful to these speakers and should be avoided. Of course, I would say the same thing about almost any speaker on the market. I would suggest appropriate use of curtains. The worst offenders for ML speakers are high humidity levels, smoke, and excessive dust. These are not a problem for most people in their homes.

As for price, yes they are expensive and yes they are phenomenal. Whether they are worth it to you, only your ears and pocketbook can say. I think it helps to have a good understanding of just what really good sound reproduction is. This is most obvious with music. Timbre, purity of tone, even frequency response, dynamics, imaging and soundstaging are all superb with these speakers but if these qualities aren't important to you, then what does that matter? Ultimately, only you can decide if they are what you want/need.

Rich, that was a nice, balanced response. :bowdown: Wish I had posted that.

::CRACKS KNUCKLES::

I'll handle this one, Rich

Feltran said:

Hello,
For several months I've been looking into taking the plunge and buying my first real home theater system. I've done a significant amount of research, and been focusing mostly on ML speakers. I've seen them in person, they look great, they sound amazing, and I pretty much instantly thought "I need these."

Damn right.

Now, after six long months, I'm finally ready to make a purchase, and want to make sure I don't regret my decision. I'm an electronics geek, so complicated stuff isn't new to me. I have some concerns about setting up the speakers for optimal performance, but I think I'll manage with that. Also, I've heard people talk about installing new panels after a few years, and that sounds a little bit daunting, how do you get new panels, how much do they cost, and are they hard to install? My last concern is that my speakers will be in a room with windows, and will almost certainly be getting some sunlight. Is that really that bad for them, or should I not worry about it?

Whether or not you need new panels depends on the use. If you use the speakers daily for hours on end, you might need to replace them every 4-6 years, say. Panel replacement isn't a big deal. So a search on the forum and there are a number of posts about replacing the panels. Essentially you remove the wood trim with a rubber mallet (couple of light taps), disconnect the wires and voila, you are ready to install the new hardware.

Alternatively, you can actually wash the panels. Take them off and cover up the wires and other important areas (exposed electronics) with plastic and proceed to hose down the panels in the shower. Let them dry overnight with a fan and that could save you some money. Again, do a search for more info.

We have people who held on to their Logans for 20+ years and have only replaced the panels once. Cost of new panels depends on the model. I want to say $500-$1000 plus a few bucks for shipping.

Exposure to direct sunlight isn't good for most things, unless you are a plant. If at all possible try to add some curtains or move the speakers to areas where prolonged exposure to sunlight isn't a problem.

Lastly, and probably most importantly, is price. I'm willing to splurge for a Martin Logan setup if I know it's really worth it, but it's too much money to not be extremely happy with my purchase. If I'm having cold feet, should I go with cheaper traditional speakers, or is Martin Logan really that phenomenal, even for a newbie like me?

Depends on how much you are looking to spend. New or used? Really both avenues have lots of value. I think ML speakers provide excellent value at many price points relative to the competition. I don't know many people who have been dissatisfied with their purchase or found another speaker that represented a better buy at the same price point. Having said that, if you are willing to take the time to set them up properly (they need room to breathe like all speakers) and mate them with good electronics (high current amps are nice) you will be well on your way. :music:

Don't worry about being a newbie. We all need to start somewhere. There's also no need to buy everything at once. Start with a modest 2 channel setup and take your time with upgrades. Visit some high end stores that carry ML speakers and try them out with a variety of electronics. See if you like SS equipment or tube amps/pre-amps, or maybe a combination of both is best for you...

Thanks

Click to expand...

Welcome Feltran,

I too am a technocrat. I started with Beta HiFi, then added Super Beta, then D-VHS, then started watching Hif Def TV in 1998 with a full HT theater from day one which started back in the 80s. Anyway, my point is that if you are really an electronics geek or find that you like sound and visual stimulation that rides the technology wave, then just like the computer game, you have to jump in the pool to figure out what's up. There is no sense in waiting for the next big thing because technology will continue to change as time goes on. With that said I added MLs to my home theater 12 years ago and I still have my original Stylos running as my Fronts and Rears. I also just finished replacing the panels and woofers on all of them. I got the new panels and woofers from ML and replaced them myself. With the help of my brother it took about 15 minutes per speaker and cost about 350 per speaker including the woofer. Again, the point is that of all the technology that I have had in my HT the MLs are the only constant. I just replaced my ML Logos center channel with a ML Stage center channel, and I only did that because I happen to stumbe into a deal on the Stage that I could not pass up. The Logos is actually a very good center channel, and I just replaced the panel and woofer on it as well. I guess my curiosity about the new 'xstat' Stage just got the better of me. And don't forget to look into Multi-channel surround sound for your HT, with an OPPO 980h you can add HDMI 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound to your HT for under 200 bucks.

You may want to look at classifieds here or on 'Gon' for some slightly used MLs to round out your HT. That way you can get in the game for less and find out exactly what you want. And finally, yes too much sunlight is bad for conventional speakers, MLs, car interiors, home furnture, human skin, etc. Besides once you get into HT big time you will want to go with a projector and then you will have to control sunlight. Hey electogeekness is a serious desease, or at least it is expensive, but if you do die from it, the mortician won't be able to remove the smile from your face:music:.

Thanks for the quick and thoughtful replies. I will be using whatever speakers I buy almost entirely for home theater purposes, rather than music listening.

The system I have in mind is:
Front channel: 2x Source.
Center channel: Matinee.
Subwoofer: Dynamo, probably. Maybe Grotto.
Rear Channel: Probably something less expensive from a different company, or maybe some used MLs.
Receiver: Denon AVR-3808CI.

Feltran said:

Thanks for the quick and thoughtful replies. I will be using whatever speakers I buy almost entirely for home theater purposes, rather than music listening.

The system I have in mind is:
Front channel: 2x Source.
Center channel: Matinee.
Subwoofer: Dynamo, probably. Maybe Grotto.
Rear Channel: Probably something less expensive from a different company, or maybe some used MLs.
Receiver: Denon AVR-3808CI.

Click to expand...

Let me give you some insight on Using ML Sources with the Denon avr3808ci, this was my experience with the set up. I about 3 weeks ago now started with Sources front and Motif Center and scripts I for rears all powered by the Denon avr3808ci. These were all demos and broken in, and these did sound wonderful when heard powered by a Rotel RMB-1095. With the denon avr-3808ci the sources just didnt seem to have the same life as they did with the Rotel. With the 3808ci they were lifeless, missing that punch when things happened in a movie or music. Examples are in musci when an artist hits a snare drum with the denon 3808ci you knew he hit it, but with a Rotel or Nad (going affordable amps) that same note now jumped out at you and was felt. It was no longer just part of the music it was a dramatic part now.

When I dumped the Denon avr-3808ci and went to seperate amp and pre-amp(using Nad M25 amp and Nad t-175 pre-amp) the sources really respind well and everything became alive and right there with me and made me part of the music or movie. Example, I was listening to Sade Live her first dvd in 5.1 and laying on my reclining love seat facing the music. Sade has a deep lusty voice, with the denon her voice was always there, clean and nice, but with the Nad and its power and punch her voice now came at me and when she sings the deepness in her voice actually makes the love seat "Vibrate".

I would have kept the Source, i was really happy with them once I changed my amp and pre-amp, but I fell inlove with sound and knew the Vistas where even better, larger sweet spot etc.

Oh one thing you will notice with the Avr-3808ci powerring the sources the bass will be muddy and not punchy or clean. You change the amp and that goes away. I really like my Nad M25 Amp and being 7.1 chose it over the rotel because of its midbass punch everything just hits you in the chest. The Rotel was great and a bit cheaper but the Nad no only sound sweet it fells sweet. I was going to get and still may get an Anthem p5 statement but thats is around $ 7000 new and Nad was $ 3000 new.

I have a suggestion if you want the sources and want to keep the denon to power them with then buy the Purity's with their self contained amp and use the denon to do the surrounds and center. Your going to pay $2000 for the sources new from an autho ML dealer well go to audiogon and there is a Autho ML dealer selling an Demo Pair of purity's for $1850 plus shipping. This dealer is in texas and I have verified that they are truly an autho dealer and on ML site also. I was thinking about buying these but came upon a deal on summits and in the process of buying those and looking at different amps now. Here is the link to the Purity's http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrplan&1215202247 If you do keep the Denon avr-3808ci and have isuues setting up your denon stuff contact me. I have multiple denon units, avr-3808ci and a 4308ci and dvd-3930ci and dvd 2930ci. Always like my denons with other speakers like infinity and Klipsch, but denon just doesnt do justice to ML, they sound good on denons but other amps just bring the ML to life and you become part of the whole exprience!

Good Luck, Mike

The sources are a great speaker but, as already mentioned, don't forget about quality amplification. I would HIGHLY recommend using the preouts on the 3808 to a 2,3, or 5 channel amplifier (currently using Denon 3808 to the a Sunfire Cinema Grand to power my speakers) or you might not get quite the bang you are looking for. I went the way of the 3808 because my theater has a CD-DVD player, HD-DVD player, cable HD tv, Wii, and xbox, so for controlling all of my stuff it was a no-brainer.

Think of Martin Logans as a sports car. Most other speakers are Kia Rios.

Both the Kia and the Corvette get you from place to place. But the 'Vette gets you there in style and allows you to enjoy its high performance along the way. As a result, you'll burn 3 times as much fuel using that Corvette to commute to work as you would in a cheap econobox.

The sports car guzzles gas, as Logans guzzle amplifier current. Using a receiver to drive Logans is not recommended -- it doesn't have enough gas.

~VDR

I'm glad you guys brought up the receiver/amplifier issue, I was concerned about that, and thought I may have to make another thread!

I like the Denon unit because I have a number of different HDMI devices, and I'm told Denon has solid HDMI support, and will help me easily manage my system. Amplifiers seem to be very expensive, and I'm just not entirely sure if I can afford one. For this reason, I'm intrigued by flykmair's suggestion of going with Purity speakers instead of Source speakers. However, since this will be a home theater set up, the center channel speaker will be very important. If the Source speakers would sound flat being powered by the Denon receiver, wouldn't that also be true of a Matinee or a Motif center channel speaker?

Also, how do the self-powered Purity speakers work when hooked up to a receiver? Is there something special you have to do to make sure it's not getting power from both sources, or does it just work itself out? And would the Purity speakers with their own amplifier sound significantly better when running through the Denon receiver than the Source speakers would?

(For reference, the Denon 3808 is 130w per channel, and the Purity amplifier is 200w)

Feltran said:

I'm glad you guys brought up the receiver/amplifier issue, I was concerned about that, and thought I may have to make another thread!

Also, how do the self-powered Purity speakers work when hooked up to a receiver? Is there something special you have to do to make sure it's not getting power from both sources, or does it just work itself out? And would the Purity speakers with their own amplifier sound significantly better when running through the Denon receiver than the Source speakers would?

(For reference, the Denon 3808 is 130w per channel, and the Purity amplifier is 200w)

Click to expand...

Ok, here we go, as for the Purity's it is very simple, do not run speaker wire to them, just run interconnects from the Avr3808ci ! look at page 17 of the manual on the avr-3808ci, connect an interconnect to the front right out of the amp out on the denon avr3808ci and run to the right front purity and plug it into the RCA plug in on the purity's. Do the exact same thing for the left channel. Now you have cut of using the front channel of the denon and that is power saved. Now you will just be using the denon to power the center and surrounds. I would definately recmmend the Motif over the Matinee. i demoed both and found the Motif to be clearer and made the vocals float on air where as the mantinee seemed to just centralize the vocals. With the motif they floated and and even when you leave the sweet spot they go with you. Plus Motif has a stand to place it on and it tilts, the Matinee doesnt.

If you were to run the sources using your denon your taking away more power and the fronts need alot by themselves to sound great. Another thing to think of with using the Puritys the amp inside drives the for you freeing up your receivers power for the center and surrounds. the good thing their is that the only channel to be driven like the fronts is the center. The surrounds are for effects and dont get driven all the time like the fronts do.

I may be new to martin Logans but have had complete audio systems since I was 14. I am now 46 and no stranger to home theater and Music systems, both with amps and pre-amps, 2 channel and mono channel. I am just now learning what works best with ML. If you were to ask me what amps to use with Klipsch reference series speakers made from 2000 till now I could answer you. Same goes for infinity speakers and Ohms and dbx. I have 3 rooms in my home with different systems all used for different things. I have a company movie room with 7.1 running used mainly for movies and some music. I have my new martin Logan room stilll being finished for my music and dvd concerts. I also have a room used for movies, music and games. I run my pc to all 3 rooms and stream movies that way and music. I am extremely passionate about 2 things Audio and Computers, thus I am single... LOL I buy audio equipment everyfew months just to see what each is like and sell what i dont want. Believe me i am poor, been disabled 34 months now and this is what i do not to go crazy. LOL

So I gave you the link to the Puritys, contact him he is an ML authorized dealer,( Hi End Theater and Audio) your getting them for what the sources go for and saving youself money on a two channel amp for the minimum of Rotel. Again here is the Link http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrplan&1215202247

If you have any questions with regards to your denon avr or any denon product I can help, email me any time and i will even give you my cell number! Would post my number here but dont want crank calls...

Buy the Purity and the Motif and if you have a denon dvd like the 2930ci or the 3930ci run the denon link 3 to the receiver for your audio and youll have dvd-audio and sacd with one cable. Then do yourself a favor and put in Mike Oldfields 2003 version of Tubular bells on dvd audio and be in Sonic heaven. The music and instraments dance from one speaker to another. I also recommend Elton Johns Goodbye Yellow Brick Road in DVD Audio or SACD, which can be bought new for around 22 bucks. Nothing Like "Funeral For A friend/Love Lies Bleeding in 5.1. Sit back and enjoy.

Oh are you going to run a sub and what are you considering? I have the Depth i and its fantastic for Music and really does surprisingly well on movies also. Feel free to contact me anytime. Sincerely, Michael Mc Donald

Feltran,

First off... :welcome: and I'm glad you met Rich, his intro is about as good as they can be.

I would like to reaffirm - this is strictly for HT?

If so, I would think hard about ML vs other brands. HT is not exactly the forte of a panel speaker - due to limited horizontal dispersion. Try sitting outside the lateral boundaries of the Source and see if you like it. You should notice a judicious drop in audio info.

This is the crux of our beloved ML speakers - phenomenal within the sweetspot, but compromised outside of it.

A conventional speaker system will get you to a similar HT experience for less money.

However, if you are willing to start enjoying stereo music the way it's meant to be enjoyed, then ML is among the few that can do that for ya.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Joey

Re flykmair:
Does only running three speakers instead of five on a receiver actually give you the ability to devote more power to those three speakers? I thought the power per channel was constant, whether you had one or five speakers being powered.
Also, the Rotel 1095 is the cheapest 200w per channel amplifier I have come across. It's almost suspiciously inexpensive, even though it seems to have good reviews. Would it provide good results to a system with Source speakers even without a preamp? As good or better than Purity speakers?


Re Joey_V:
Hi Joey. This is strictly for HT, and I certainly wouldn't complain about spending less money, but I don't want inferior results. Also, I have to admit, I like the look of ML speakers. My place isn't very big, so the room that will be my HT room is also my living room, and I don't want to ruin the decor with a bunch of boring black boxes. With that said, is there some HT limitation of ML other than having a small sweet spot? I have one sofa, and I am not too concerned about the quality of audio anywhere except for sitting on that sofa.

Feltran said:

Re flykmair:
Does only running three speakers instead of five on a receiver actually give you the ability to devote more power to those three speakers? I thought the power per channel was constant, whether you had one or five speakers being powered.
Also, the Rotel 1095 is the cheapest 200w per channel amplifier I have come across. It's almost suspiciously inexpensive, even though it seems to have good reviews. Would it provide good results to a system with Source speakers even without a preamp? As good or better than Purity speakers?


Re Joey_V:
Hi Joey. This is strictly for HT, and I certainly wouldn't complain about spending less money, but I don't want inferior results. Also, I have to admit, I like the look of ML speakers. My place isn't very big, so the room that will be my HT room is also my living room, and I don't want to ruin the decor with a bunch of boring black boxes. With that said, is there some HT limitation of ML other than having a small sweet spot? I have one sofa, and I am not too concerned about the quality of audio anywhere except for sitting on that sofa.

Click to expand...

Your in luck, I actually demo'd the Sources and on 4 different rotel amps, the rb-1050 70 watts x 2 into 8 ohms and the Rb-1070 130 watts x 2 into 8 ohms and Rb-1080 200 watts x 2 into 8 ohms and their class d RB-1072 100 watts x 2 into 8 ohms. The amp in the purity's is what it is, give you an example, the Amp in the depth i is 300 with peak of 900 cost for relacement amp is aprox 150. Martin Logan makes the Depth i inhouse and the Purity and Sources are made by someone else for them(bottom end housing and woofer) panels are made by Ml. call martin logan and see what the amps in each purity cost my guess about 125 each so figure 250 to 300 to get both replaced. you tell me whats going to be better and sound better, a 37 lbs rb-1080 rotel amp at $999 new(used from 250 and up) or the built in amps in the puritys. i listened to the puritys driven by their internal amp first and then the rotels and then back to their internals with the same music. the rotels smoothed out the speaker, made it rich and warm and gave a mid bass punch lacked by the internal amp. I only suggested the Puritys since you can grab them for what the sources cost and you wont have to by an amp right away.

As for the denon avr3808ci, they are not running seperate amps per channel on seperate boards like Anthem Statement P5 or Nad M25 look at this link and youll see what I am saying! http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/nad-...technical-brochure-5897/page-14-fullsize.html notice 7 seperate boards with heat fins for each seperate amp, now looking inside the top of your denon. Think ML depthi sub, it has 3 active woofers and one amp, so that 300 watt amp runs all 3 active woofers, think of the denon avr3808ci that way! I know its not exactly like that but just trying to get you to see the big picture.

Whats the size of the room, how far apart will the two fronts be? How far away from the fronts is the sofa? Can you put your fronts atleast 30 inches fron the rear wall and about 24 inches from the side wall? How high is the sofa? How high is you head from the floor when sitting on the sofa? Remember both the Purity and sources have a 28 inch esl panel, but you can rotate the bottom to change the angle of the the speaker to change the angle of the panel. If I remember right the the source/purity is about 47 inches to the top of the panel. So you id you have the panels level and not tilted up your head should be about 35 to 40 max inches from the ground. I am 42 inches from the ground with my vistas placing me in the center of the panel for my main listening spot. My co,mputer chair my head is 47 inches above the ground and at that hieght I lost some clarity, ie... highs with panels not tilted up on the sources. Their is so much to consider, size of room, openings, windows, blinds, bookshelves, drywall, wall texture. My sofa is my sweetspot my room right now is 16 long 12 wide and 8ft high. I have to flip the room around but cant do that for a few weeks, why flip my room, well fronts are on the wall with a door opening so i loose 40 inches of wall instead of the 24 from the side. Also my door isnt really wood or drywall its Plastic and well being dipole panels sound goes back as well as forward and the plastci door reflects the sounds different giving me higher highs then the drywall does. I hung a thin felt blanket over the door to cut the reflection till I redo the room. I am waiting or my rear surrounds, decideing between vigs or fresco i for the 7.1. i have 5.1 set up with vistas front, Motif center, script i rears and depthi sub.

I have only had ML for 3 weeks now, started with sources and the motif and scripti's with depth i and took back the sources went to vistas, How much do i love my Ml, well just bought a set of Summits for my bedroom to sleep with, 2 channel only..lol. Once Ml sound gets you, youll keep upgrading amps and speakers. i started off speakering 4000 on sources and Motif with tax from auth dealer and then another 4500 on amp and pre-amp, used it 10 days and then changed my sources for vistas so my 8500 became 10,500 since I had already had the depth i for 3 months running with me Klipsch. Now i just spent 6000 on anthem p2 amp and 7500 on sources and still need a quality 2 channel pre-amp plus interconnects and wire etc. So in the last 30 days I have spent about 20k on ml speakers and another 20 k to power em. lol i am totally crazy. you can go poor fast once you fall inlove with the mL sound. Thats 40k in about 30 days and to put it in perspective, i bought this house in sept 2007 for 85k, 3 bedroom 2 full bath.

Remember if you get new ones from a dealer and not demos, your in for a good 100 hour break in period. I had my broken in sources and when my vistas arrived new and sealed in the box, i hooked them up and said why did i spend another 2k to upgrade, they sound bad. Well every minute they play they get tighter and tighter and i smile more and more. Paiteince with Ml speakers is the key.

Hope this helps and doesnt scare you, I am sure other members here will tell you, once your hooked you want better and better and you strive to achieve it. Everything you chnage be it interconnects, speaker wire, room decor, amps, pre-amp, sacd players, dvd player, etc all effect how the ML sound. Have fun and you wont find a speaker out there that you want to spend every minute listening too like ML's. Mine are on 10-14 hours a day and soon to be one in another room about 8 hours a day.

PS: So you know how anal i am about my ML, I actually cover them when I am not running them! I dont cover my Infinitys or my Klipsch and actually dont enjoy listening to either the klipsch or infinitys anymore. Sold my klipsch and now going to sell my 2 seperate sets of infinitys. I have the whole Beta series i just bought 3 months ago max, mabye actually 2 months ago, looking at more martin Logans for that room..lol

Any questions.. call me 870-321-3451 ok so Im crazy for posting it...

I am looking at placing my speakers about 80'' apart from one another and 115'' from my head, with a 10' ceiling and typical couch height. I think I could manage to get either a 2 channel Rotel (running the other 3 speakers through the receiver) or a 5 channel Rotel (running all 5 speakers through the amp. My sub doesn't need to be run through the amp, right?).

As for the front channel speakers, it looks like my options are new Source speakers, used Purity speakers (which would let me put off my amp purchase for a little while) or used Vista speakers for not much more. I like the idea of having a warranty, and the Source speakers sounded pretty darn good to me, but would the Vistas be a better investment (also taking into account that I don't really have any way of knowing how many hours they have)? I also like not having to bother with a break in period.

Oh, and one question about setup. If you are using both a receiver and an amplifier, can I use HDMI to go from the player to the receiver and then audio connections to the amp, and then from the amp to the speakers, or does the player have to send video to the receiver and audio to the amp, or do I just have this totally wrong?


(And hey, maybe if I get a Martin Logan system it will give me a whole new appreciation for music)

Feltran said:

(And hey, maybe if I get a Martin Logan system it will give me a whole new appreciation for music)

Click to expand...

Bingo! You'll re-discover your entire music collection.

Great responses guys... especially Mike: nice going, Noob!

Not sure I would post my phone number.. a PM may have been better. This site is constantly being "crawled" by search engines and your phone number will be everywhere shortly.

Feltran, I haven’t been a part of this site for a very long time and I would say I am still a big noob when it comes to home theater and Logan’s. So with that said you can take my advice like a grain of salt and I won’t be offended at all. I just went through the same thing that you are trying to do not to long ago. I have had my Logan’s for about three years now and they have been always powered by Yamaha Receivers. First had just the Clarity’s with a RX-V1700 and then added Cinema I for center, Script I’s for rears, and just added a depth I for a sub. Know I did have all of that being pushed be the Yamaha RX-V2700 which I had to upgrade to from the 1700 after those purchases. After reading tons of posts here and asking a lot of questions like the ones you are asking now, I was shown the light. You need separates! When I had everything setup in my theater room with the Yamaha it sounded great to me and I loved it. Little did I know that the guys here on these forums knew what they were talking about when they kept telling me to go and listen to some separates? I made a huge improvement in my system by purchasing the Rotel RMB-1095 after hearing my speakers on it at Overture. I still have the Yamaha doing the processing but I am in the process of upgrading that. The sounds that I hear now are great and 10 times better then what I thought was great before. So if you can spend the money purchase separates and you won’t regret it. And definitely take the advice from all of these guys here on this site; they know what they are talking about.

my $.02

you know...the way i see it is this...my dog...was always fooled by dogs on the 'screen' in home theatre with ML's, if its good enough to fool a dogs hearing..its MORE than enough for me *she would try to 'converse' with the dogs on the screen *1st time was the RCA intro with all those dogs barking/running around* thats my main selling point The most interesting point is...she WOULDNT do it for B&W's though..just ML's...not sure why...

addon: and the difference between 1x0 Watts and 200W *full powered* is night/day. believe me....i have a set of Aerius I's *new gen panels* ive tried in so many diff ways with lots of diff hardware....if its my choice..ill NEVER run my speakers less than 200W EVER.*currently using Anthem MCA 2 with MCA5000 transformers inside**factory installed** *

Feltran,

You mentioned Vistas... well, I would get those if you can. You really want your mains to be as good as they can get so "when" you do begin to appreciate the music (as you said), you can do so at a higher level.

Joey

I think one of the things that a lot of the guys here are saying is that once you get MLs, whether it is for HT or Music, nothing is more revealing. In other words as you upgrade all your other components the MLs will give you an epiphany each time you find a worthy upgrade. There will be no doubt in your mind. Those epiphanies are what drive many of us to upgrade amps, inter-connects, power conditioners, screens, BD players, speaker wire, Universal DVD players, SACD, players, room treatments, and the list goes on and includes climbing the ML ladder to Nirvanna. Once you have your HT setup be sure to try SACD or DVDA 5.1 music. It will give you a whole new drug habit... I mean music habit. The thing that makes HT so great is the multi-channel immersion experience, the same thing will happen with multi-channel music, and nothing reveals the experience like ML speakers.:music: