A thread i started about tubes and logans on another forum

Folks,

As i look for a new amp i wanted your opinion on all this. Yes i know i've asked about Dared and Butler over the last few days. Quite frankly i'm dismayed that the Dareds may not work as they are tubes at a price point i can deal with.

Since you all have Martin and some of you have tube experience would you give me some advice? Should i just give up the idea of a tube amp that produces less then 50 watts? Then again, i know someone uses Sixpacs around here with success and his Martains don't sound like "random tone generating device" as Photobitstream suggests.

Please see: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54512

Thanks all.

You are trying to match up with the Vantage ?

Which model of Martin Logan are you trying to power?

EDIT:

Summit but probably a Vantage

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These are new speakers, many people will be trying many combinations to find out what works best. Until years of experiences on these speakers are published/posted you have only your ears to trust.

lets look at this another way......... "Headroom"........"back-up powwer in the bank", call it what you want, but remember, would you buy a car that could only do the speed limit ?? Of course not, so don't shortchange your M/L's either.

I still love my little Jolida 302-B, but I have it doing a better job of driving my Totem Arro's in another room in the house. They are an esay to drive 4 ohm speaker.

As Roberto says, listen with your ears and then decide !!

I'll say right from the start, I have no experience with any of the products that you mention, but...

Based on the advice you have received, if it were me, I would drop down a step on the speakers to allow money for adequate amplification...or add more to the budget. It seems like you are spending an aweful lot for cutting edge speakers, then skimping on the amp...sort of like the guy that buys a high end sports car and then puts cheap tires on it. You are not likely to realize the performance that you have paid all that money for.

You mention both Summits and Vantage. There is about a $5k delta between the two, which would be enough to greatly improve the budget of amps to consider. Buy the right amp now, then upgrade the speakers later if you still feel the need.

my $0.02, FWIW.

Steve

+1 on the above reply. The right amp makes the speakers.
Charles

BearcatSandor said:

Folks,

As i look for a new amp i wanted your opinion on all this. Yes i know i've asked about Dared and Butler over the last few days. Quite frankly i'm dismayed that the Dareds may not work as they are tubes at a price point i can deal with.

Since you all have Martin and some of you have tube experience would you give me some advice? Should i just give up the idea of a tube amp that produces less then 50 watts? Then again, i know someone uses Sixpacs around here with success and his Martains don't sound like "random tone generating device" as Photobitstream suggests.

Please see: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54512

Thanks all.

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Hola. Thorugh all these years (over 25 in high end goods) I had learned a general rule: if you have a $ 3000.00 amp, get speakers in the same category. If your speakers worth $5.000 then the surrounded goods should be in the same price range tag. It is a general rule, and of course can be bended. The new speakers from ML are so efficient that you can use low power amps to drive them with no problem. Trust your ears and dare yourself to try different amps. In now days there are a lot of good sounding stuff. Gears like, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Bell Canto, Viva, Audio Analogue, VTL, BAC, Cary Audio, McIntosh, Margules Audio,Jadis,joule-electra, Six Pack,Cayin,Art Audio, just to name a few great brands, and of course I have not mention a lot more as good as these. Follow this general rule, and you won't be wrong. Happy listening,
Pura Vida,
Roberto.

roberto said:

general rule: if you have a $ 3000.00 amp, get speakers in the same category. If your speakers worth $5.000 then the surrounded goods should be in the same price range tag. It is a general rule, and of course can be bended.

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I like this "rule", now that I think about it, I have followed it by accident and or by budget constraint over the years.

The problem i am facing is that since my hi-fi system burned up, i have no working amp. I do have a pair of little book shelf speakers that with be some-what adequate. I plan on buying a pair of Vantages or Summits in the next few years.

I don't want to go out and buy an expensive band-aid just to replace it when i get the new speakers in a year or so. In effect i am looking at it as if i were building a system slowly.

One of my difficulties is that i don't have some of the listening opportunities some of you have as i am in a rural area. However, i *do* have a hi-fi store within 55 miles of me (it's the only one with in 200 miles or so). I like the folks there and have spend hours listening during their "Hang out, bring your discs at our listening party every two weeks" events

So, what I plan to do is to get a loan on, or purchase some of these products and bring them to the store and listen to the Summits or Vantages with them. If they sound really good to me (I know what i am looking for) keep them. IF not send them back and pay the re-stocking fee. The restocking fee is less then the travel required in auditioning some of these things.

But i'm asking all these questions so i know where to start. There is no point in my sending away for an Art Audio Px-25 (for instance *drool*) if it will sound bad on the MLs.

Thanks all.

BearcatSandor said:

Should i just give up the idea of a tube amp that produces less then 50 watts?

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Tubes are tricky with Logans due to the wide impedance swing presented by the panels ranging from 30 ohms to 1 ohm. The item to note here is NOT to get bogged down by the low 1 ohm load @ 20khz since there is little music (energy) to be reproduced in that area. Any well-designed tube amplifier worth its salt will be able to handle this load at this extreme frequency without problems. It would be another story if this 1 ohm load occurs around the midrange area (1khz - 5khz). With this requirement from Logans, SET are pretty much out of the picture due to the fact that they like to see constant, flat impedance curve instead of the wild swing of the Logans. I've been in contact with various well-regarded amplifier designers asking about a good tube amplifier dedicated to the task of driving the panels and pretty much got the same feedback from all of them: about 30 to 60 usable watts of push-pull, (preferrably) triode design will suffice. It's worth mentioning here that the designers include Mick Mahoney of SupraTek, Dennis Had of Cary, Victor Khomenko of BAT, Fred Volz of Emotive Audio, Gary Dodd of Dodd Audio, Paul Grzybek of Tube Audio Design, etc... The key is to look for well-designed, choked regulated power-supply in order to keep the input voltage rock solid regardless of the demands during tough musical passages. Now, given that the Vantage (or Summit) have internal bass amplifiers already, the sweet spot for a good, musical amplifier is around the 50wpc area in triode mode, up to 100wpc ultra-linear. On the solid-state side, 50wpc (or 100wpc) class-A power from Pass Labs or Monarchy Audio are more than you'll need on the panels.

One of the many good white papers to read is Steve Deckert's design notes on the Zen Torii where he talks about the importance of power supplies & output wattage. Hope this shed some more light into this tricky subject...

Spike

Good respone Spike, I agree 100%, it's just that in my case the Jolida(lets face it this is a inexpensive piece,certinally no Mac or ARC) just didn't "cut the mustard"

Good response Spike! Keep up the good work.

I am always curious as to what the speaker makers recommend for amplification. So I shot an email off to ML about specifically the Summit. The reply I got was to use an amp rated at "at least 130 WPC @ 8 ohms and 200 WPC @4 ohms.....this is a minimum rating...Using more power than this will only make your speakers perform better."

I dont know if this means anything, but it must make one curious. I threw out some names like Krell, Classe, VTL, Musical Fidelity, Anthem, Rotel, and Marantz. He only mentioned that they have used all the brands listed, and that I go listen and decide...but he also specifically mentioned that "Marantz makes products that may not push the Summits well enough, so I would steer more towards a higher end product like the Krell or Classe."

Take this with a grain of salt. But is always interesting to know what the manufacturers "prefer" or use for references. Although he didnt recommend one brand or model, the comment on power rating seemed fairly strict. I also inquired to Gallo about what they would recommend for the Ref. 3.1 speakers. The reply I got from UK was that they use Arcam almost exclusively in exhibitions and so forth over there. But I got another reply that mentioned that Anthony uses a class D amp on his personal system and loves it more than anything. Interesting discussions. Thats all.

That said. I have always been "mezmerized" by the sound of ML + tubes + vinyl.

Audiophiliac said:

I am always curious as to what the speaker makers recommend for amplification. So I shot an email off to ML about specifically the Summit. The reply I got was to use an amp rated at "at least 130 WPC @ 8 ohms and 200 WPC @4 ohms.....this is a minimum rating...Using more power than this will only make your speakers perform better."

I dont know if this means anything, but it must make one curious. I threw out some names like Krell, Classe, VTL, Musical Fidelity, Anthem, Rotel, and Marantz. He only mentioned that they have used all the brands listed, and that I go listen and decide...but he also specifically mentioned that "Marantz makes products that may not push the Summits well enough, so I would steer more towards a higher end product like the Krell or Classe."

Take this with a grain of salt. But is always interesting to know what the manufacturers "prefer" or use for references. Although he didnt recommend one brand or model, the comment on power rating seemed fairly strict. I also inquired to Gallo about what they would recommend for the Ref. 3.1 speakers. The reply I got from UK was that they use Arcam almost exclusively in exhibitions and so forth over there. But I got another reply that mentioned that Anthony uses a class D amp on his personal system and loves it more than anything. Interesting discussions. Thats all.

That said. I have always been "mezmerized" by the sound of ML + tubes + vinyl.

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Well Martin Logan won best in show for sound at more than a couple events using VTL amps.

Mr. Sanders has (or had) in his home VTL too I believe. Been a long time since I was on the tour.

I am always curious as to what the speaker makers recommend for amplification. So I shot an email off to ML about specifically the Summit. The reply I got was to use an amp rated at "at least 130 WPC @ 8 ohms and 200 WPC @4 ohms.....this is a minimum rating...Using more power than this will only make your speakers perform better."

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What about a minimum rating for tube powered amps? Does ML have a power rating recommendation for a tube powered amp on the Summits? Or did they state the 130 WPC minimum applies to both solid state and tube amps?

Craig said:

What about a minimum rating for tube powered amps? Does ML have a power rating recommendation for a tube powered amp on the Summits? Or did they state the 130 WPC minimum to apply to both solid state and tube amps?

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He didnt specifically mention anything about that. But I think more power is always a good thing. And as far as tubes go, VTL, for instance only makes on amp that would not fall in that category. The ST-150 I think would make a superb match to the Summit. We have one running our Vantages. Sounds pretty.