Ticking CLS II - lets make it sing!

[Don Camillo]

Hi gentlemen,
The first time I saw a CLS in the 90's I immediately loved them... Since then I built many speakers and bought some Apogee Duetta's and a few months ago finally some CLS's....

They look so sexy... and can sound pretty good... but I have some frustrating issues with them.

Tonight after watching the movie Fury (its almost liberation day here, thanks to the US and English soldiers!)... and I wanted to play... Bruce Springsteen's - The Ghost of Tom Joad...

Tack... tack... tack... snapp... the cd stopped.

I have vaccuumed my panels a few times the last months but it doesnt seem to help...

When I play at normal volume it starts to tick... I can only listen at low volumes (which is nice already).

Strangly my Audio Note Cd player always stops when the tick is too loud. And at one time even my ARC tube preamp shut off... Huh???

I tried a Marantz player; it doesnt stop, but the panels keep ticking...

What could be wrong here?

The sound from the panels is very good and linear.

Is it in the black box? I cant see a spark when it ticks, but it sounds like a small spark from the panels.. Its sooo frustrating....

Btw. I tweaked my normal set a bit and with every improvement the CLS II sounded better and better.... but the tick stays.... arghhh.

What can I do?

Thanks in advance!

Grtz,
Don Camillo

 

[Don Camillo]

Oh, and 1 thing that is strange is;
Its not always the same with the ticks, sometimes the same song can play louder and it ticks at different minutes in a song....

 

[R.I.P]

The time I heard ticking through the electrostatic panel is when dac oversampling was set beyond 192 kHz.

My source or digital signal provider used to be a Dell that could oversample to 192khz max.

My USB dac had the option to oversample to 384 kHz.

Whenever I select 384 kHz on the dac, I could hear ticking at, if I recall accurately, moderate to high volume.

Try decreasing the over sampling rate to see whether the problem goes away.

Examine the interconnection between cd player and preamp. Try changing interconnect with new or flawless interconnects.

 

[Don Camillo]

Hi RAH, thanks for your answer!

It could be that the dac/player combo has something to do with the ticking.

But.. ., my upgraded Audio Note DAC 3 is I think 20 yrs or so.... so it does not play above 192 khz.

But i noticed that when I play through a DAP on aux that I can play much louder....

I will try tonight and see to find out more...
Could it be that the Dac has to much gain for the preamp?

I now have a Audio research SP16 and before my Quad 66 pre did the same...
So its not the pre or the selected input channel.

But maybe its in the wiring... I will try other interconnectors. And a player wothout the Dac.

I would hate it if its the Dac, I love that modded Pcm 63 Dac. (Modded by a pro btw, not me).

Also I dont know if "tick" is the right word, I saw some ppl discribe a "pop"...
But it sounds like a spark, tick to me.
The sound at that time is also distorted. Its a bit scary....

Thanks!
Don Camillo

 

[Brandon Hartwick]

My Aeries panels started ticking and popping a while back and they needed to be washed as they had a layer of grime built up on the membrane over the years.

Have a really close look at the panels and see how much junk is on them

edit:. I just realized components are turning off, that's very weird. You've got something funky going on.

 

[Don Camillo]

Thanks Brandon! All input is welcome!

The washing makes sense, allthough I am a bit anxcious about it because I have never done that...
And also I have read that some mention sound got worse after that... but maybe those are rare cases... idk.

I think its a funky thing too that some components turn off.....

Lets see if it will show up what the reason is...

I also had it with a different amp, as well as player.

 

[Brad225]

I had a similar problem with my CLSIIz speakers.
It was an issue with the Sony SCD-1 I had. It had been upgraded and the only down side was it lowered the output extremely low. I had upgraded to ARC 610T amps and the first day with the new amps one of the amps didn't like the signal voltage coming from the pre and there was the sound of static for 2 or 3 pops and the main fuse in the amp blew.

If yours does this regularly it is probably the panels. You didn't say how old they were.

Have you tried moving the interface to the other panel to see if the sound moves with it?

Have you tried swapping the speaker cable and send the left signal to the right and the right to the left from the power amp?

Have you tried taking the the panels out and giving them a shower?
If not you should give it a try.

Good luck keep us updated.

As a side note to my amp going dark the first hour I had them. Walking down stairs and telling my wife that had no interest in audio but understands my obsession that I killed one of them was, maybe, one of the most difficult things I have had to do in our relationship.

 

[Don Camillo]

Hi Brad,

Woww... ARC 610T amps... THATS nice!

I can imagine the feeling u had when that happened...

The history of the panels is unknown unfortunately... because the previous owner no longer lives....

They look very well maintained but could be old. Also they sound clear and linear from bass to highs.

I contacted an expert in panel speakers in my country and he said he could wash them and put a spray coating over the panels (no new mylar but something else) so the ticking doesnt occur that easy.
For the price of 160,- $/€ (dollar and euro is about the same) and another 60,- for taming the transformers a bit.. Dont know what he meant by that but I think he doesnt want to share his work "secrets"...

Also I am not sure about the spraying if that wouldnt alter the performance of the speaker in sound, details, musicality and so...
Is the spraying a more common thing?

Same goes for the taming of the interface box.

I havent change the interface yet or the cables... or components, but I will try a bit tonight...

With first having another good vaccuum cleaning.

 

[Brad225]

I had one of my CLSIIz stop working at one time.

I took the interfaces to my EE friend and he found many of the diodes under the plastic cover had broken solder joints.
He suggested replacing the dale resistors and the caps. Along with that he changed it to point to point wiring removing using the lesser traces on the board.

The final things was to replace the binding posts for the speakers terminals and the fuse holders with gold plated hardware.
This made a big positive difference in the sound.

 

[Brandon Hartwick]

Honestly washing the panels isn't nearly as big of a deal as people make it out to be. If the panel is in even half decent shape the water should cause no harm. I know people get worried about washing the coating off the mylar but I can really only see that happening if the coating is already in bad shape. Leaving the panels in direct sunlight could definitely cause degradation over the years though.

If you have equipment shutting off during the noises I highly doubt it's dirty panels, that just doesn't happen. If you're watching for sparks I'd try watching in the dark and see if anything comes up. Maybe inspect the power supply section with a meter if you have one and compare measurements on each speaker.

Do you have any other amps/pre amps you could swap with just to try? If the sound follows after changing front end components you know for sure it's something in the speaker.

 

[Robert D]

We have a member on here that used simple green on his and they came out working great. That goes against what I've been told, but that's his experience.

Russ Knotts, the guy we know that redoes panels, told me not to use any cleaner on them. It was his opinion that even just water would take off some of the coating. Many on here have washed theirs with good results.

 

[Brandon Hartwick]

We have a member on here that used simple green on his and they came out working great. That goes against what I've been told, but that's his experience.

Russ Knotts, the guy we know that redoes panels, told me not to use any cleaner on them. It was his opinion that even just water would take off some of the coating. Many on here have washed theirs with good results.

That was me, I think one other guy did the same. My panels were totally filthy and a vacuum didn't do anything so I used simple green and distilled water.

My opinion is if the panels are dirty and vacuuming doesn't work than give them a wash. If it's between washing and replacing what do you have to lose?

 

[Robert D]

That was me, I think one other guy did the same. My panels were totally filthy and a vacuum didn't do anything so I used simple green and distilled water.

My opinion is if the panels are dirty and vacuuming doesn't work than give them a wash. If it's between washing and replacing what do you have to lose?

I agree. If the panels are doing terrible, why not try. Eventually you'll need to replace them, but it could put it off a few years.

I probably should have tried doing mine. I just ended up getting new because I didn't want to mess with cleaning and at the time I really thought it would not work. Since then we have more success stories here.

 

[Robert D]

I had one of my CLSIIz stop working at one time.

I took the interfaces to my EE friend and he found many of the diodes under the plastic cover had broken solder joints.
He suggested replacing the dale resistors and the caps. Along with that he changed it to point to point wiring removing using the lesser traces on the board.

The final things was to replace the binding posts for the speakers terminals and the fuse holders with gold plated hardware.
This made a big positive difference in the sound.

How old were the speakers at the time they stopped working?

 

[Brad225]

How old were the speakers at the time they stopped working?

That was in 2014.
I had replaced the panels in 2008 when I purchased the CLSIIz so they were 6 years old.
The speakers were built the first year that CLSIIz speakers were built.

 

[Robert D]

That was in 2014.
I had replaced the panels in 2008 when I purchased the CLSIIz so they were 6 years old.
The speakers were built the first year that CLSIIz speakers were built.

So when you replaced the caps and other internal parts they were only about 12 years old?

 

[Leporello]

Do both panels tick simultaneously? Try listening with other speakers or headphones (heavily attenuated, if needed) to rule out electronics problems. But it seems more than likely the problem is with both panels. I would be surprised if the problem was in both transformer boxes. I believe failures in those to be rare enough where two at once would be very unlikely. But panel problems are common, especially if they're old.

If you've tried vacuuming them already, you could try the washing, one at a time, and see if that helps. It sounds scary, but nobody reports actually ruining a panel this way. It needs to dry thoroughly, of course, before energizing again. There are lots of showering instructions on these forums.

The shutting down of one CD player sounds weird. Maybe due to RF interference from the arcing. The tubed ARC is very weird (can't think of what's inside it that could cause that). Are the electronics and panel bias supplies running off the same AC socket? You could try powering the panels from somewhere else, there shouldn't be any ground loop problems as a result. If you're seeing flashes from inside the boxes but don't actually have them opened up, it may just be the bias LED, which you might expect if the bias is getting yanked down due to arcing.

Worst case scenario, if both panels need replacing, I consider these speakers well worth the cost.

I very stupidly damaged one of the NOS panels that came with mine. I was standing on a ladder to hang a carpet for acoustic absorption, mis-counted steps, and fell back onto the speaker. I was fine, but the panel got bent. It would tick even with no music playing, as I recall, as soon as the bias came up out of standby. Trying to bend it back didn't help. I love these speakers, and will re-panel them again if required.

Dumb mistake #2 during this episode was while wiring up the new panel, I pinched a wire in the metalwork and barked the insulation. I had to get some Teflon tubing of the right size to go around it. You might want to check for that. It's entirely possible someone barked wires on both sides while assembling the panels. Way too easy to do when you screw the boxes to the panels, or the covers to the boxes, if there's a mis-routed wire.

BTW where in Europe do you live? Is it a very humid environment? That could change the equation entirely, if you haven't already tried a room dehumidifier. But I've never heard of that being a problem anywhere with ML panels.

 

[Leporello]

I had one of my CLSIIz stop working at one time.

I took the interfaces to my EE friend and he found many of the diodes under the plastic cover had broken solder joints.
He suggested replacing the dale resistors and the caps. Along with that he changed it to point to point wiring removing using the lesser traces on the board.

The final things was to replace the binding posts for the speakers terminals and the fuse holders with gold plated hardware.
This made a big positive difference in the sound.

If the diodes in the voltage multiplier stack had broken solder joints, that was certainly the problem. I don't know about the other stuff. I'm wondering, though, about the likelihood of finding a problem like that in two transformer boxes at once, unless they were grossly abused in shipping.

p.s. My CLS II's don't have a plastic cover over the diode stack, that I recall.

 

[Leporello]

I would hate it if its the Dac, I love that modded Pcm 63 Dac. (Modded by a pro btw, not me).

Not familiar with it, but you might hate it more if you end up replacing both panels.

 

[Leporello]

Walking down stairs and telling my wife that had no interest in audio but understands my obsession that I killed one of them was, maybe, one of the most difficult things I have had to do in our relationship.

You must have a great relationship then