Should I buy?

[Iansr]

I've been offered pair of CLS 11Z's that date from 1992 but the owner replaced the films 4 years ago. He has been using them ever since and says they sound fabulous (well he would). Given the cost of new panels I'm looking for some reassurance that they should now lst a good few years. Lets assume for now that the guy was competent and he did a good job. Thoughts welcomed!

 

[twich54]

based on your assertion that all is well and they have been properly cared for then by all means they should be a nice find. should be plenty of life on the panels, any replacement of electronics ? I'm assuming you've researched the pricing for your area

 

[Iansr]

Thanks for that. I'm not concerned about the electronics as I might well tweak them anyway.

Anyone else with any words of wisdom?

 

[roberto]

Hola. I was a very happy owner of the CLS model since 1987. I ended with the CLS2z, until I changed for the CLX Art. All I can say is that if you have proper installed in your room, having at least 3 feet away from its back wall, and tilted a little bit inwards, their transparency and clarity is un-match. Specially for jazz combo music, chamber music, vocals and solo instrument(s), will give to you the sense of the real event.

Guitar and piano are breath taking, and the quality of the strings are truly reproduced with the right timbre with the right size. Also, you can understand the left hand of the piano player easy vs the right hand. Because there is no crossover, the coherency is perfect. They are a little bit shy at the deepest bass, so a sub is a must, but with a very little volume, cutting circa 60 Hz, just to add the deeper bass notes that it can not reproduce. Trust your ears and play vocals or solo instrument.

This will show to your ears if something is wrong. The guitar notes should be clear and crystal, the tonal balance of the cymbals should be as they are, with tons of metal singing, not like a cow bell, vocals should be in front of you, showing a sense of truly 3D with a wide stage, letting you know where is each musician playing. The bass notes should be equal in intensity, not one bass note.

Try to adjust the bass level at your golden seat, moving them 3 inches to the back, listen, then come back to the original position, then 3 inches to the front, and listen again. Each adjustment will require at least one hour of listening, because you need to get used to that position, then make the change. Trust your ears!!! Happy listening.

 

[Iansr]

Roberto
thanks for your comments. I use multiple subs (as recommended by Earl Geddes) so I'm not concerned about the CLS' limitations in that area. I also have sufficient space to position them correctly.
Just out of interest, how do you think the CLX compare to the 11Zs ?

 

[roberto]

It is a totally different beast! You can not compare them...it's the CLS processor, but the design took over 5 years of research. The new panels are to my ears, much better. But you will find members that prefer the old technology. There are four double bass panels on each CLX. These are connected bi-polar, and the mid and highs panel, is di-polar. Their sensitivity makes us the possibility to use small power amplifiers. You need only 20Watts/channel to make them to sing.

On the CLS, you need at least, 50 to 60 watts/channel on a tube amp to drive them at normal listening level. What is normal? Around 85 dB to 90dB SPL. If you want more level, you need at least 200Watt/channel for the CLSs. Other thing is that these new CLXs are more friendly to drive. The impedance curve is different, making possible to the use of a wide possibilities on power amps.

I am a tube guy. But I have to tell you that I have being playing with a pair of Bel Canto Evo2MKII modified, and I did like them too very much.

About a week or so, I just made the change back to my tube gear, and my ears are telling me that this sound is more for them. Crystal clear voices, right with the size of the instruments, huge wide stage, with tons of dynamics, a truly experience. I am using in triode mode, and the reed at the sax is a wow! Tons of resolution. I do know that my room is small, but everybody that comes here, their first exclamation is: how did you do this?

The quantity of bass energy at your seating position is very important. If you have too much bass energy, you will have the bass player playing next to you on some notes, and not at the stage, where he or she is supposed to be. So critical listening is advice regarding it.

On the other hand, the CLS, when they sing, are one of the most truthful speakers even on these days. I sold mines to a dear friend, and every time that I am at his place, a lot of home sick comes to my mind. I really miss them. But, then I come here, and listen what I have now, and find my feet tapping along the music, I am very happy too. Happy listening!

 

[malcesine]

hi Ian,
I'll take them off your hands if you don't like them !
Good luck - I am sure you will love them

 

[Bernard]

Listen to them before you buy.

 

[Iansr]

I have no doubt that I will love them. My concern is about their longevity.

 

[TomDac]

My concerns with buying them would be getting new panels in the UK.. They will eventually need them and they will be VERY expensive.

 

[roberto]

There is no way how to answer that question. Mines, are using the very first panels, and still singing very nice... and they have over 16 years by now...I had the stat panels epidemic in the latest 80s and early 90s. Some panels only last 2 or 3 months here in Costa Rica. Our weather is very humid, and the old adhesive did not like humidity. Martin Logan, with the help of the Kansas University, came out with a special adhesive at atomic level, to make the diaphragm to be conductive. Nasa did help too. So what we are using now on every Martin Logan speakers, a Nasa product, which is a plastic that conducts the electricity. Lifespan is very difficult to say, you will never will have a stat panel issue. I can say, that the epidemic had gone. Its over. I do trust a lot the new adhesive and the lifespan of the stat panels had become a reality. Happy listening

 

[malcesine]

I have SL3's - around 16 years old or older - so in theory waaaaay beyond a need for replacement panel
they are still going strong with not a hint of deterioration

don't listen to the doom merchants on panel age and inevitable replacements, they are built to last and will go as long as a conventional speaker or longer
is there a risk - yes of course - but yours will be 4 years old, a mere child with a long and happy life ahead

ask your seller for proof on the replacement panels, have a listen - if all is good buy, then enjoy !!

 

[Iansr]

Thanks for all your comments guys. If he had replaced them with ML panels I wouldn't hesitate, but it was a DIY replacement of the diaphragms. Because of that I've decided not to buy them and wait for a more suitable pair to purchase. I'm prepared to risk buying some with original panels as long as the price reflects that.

 

[roberto]

But, it would be wise to listen to them first! Your ears will tell easy if there is a problem. Also remember, that the whole panel produce sound. You can bring your ear closer to the panel from left to right and from top to bottom, if the panel is O.K. Happy listening!

 

[Iansr]

Unfortunately they are currently located in a different country!

 

[roberto]

Ask the seller a return possibility. I know this would be expensive, but probably less than keeping a bad CLS. You might find someone at that country that could help listening to it...just guessing possibilities. Or, wait a little bit, and perhaps you will find a pair in mint conditions there where you are.

 

[edwinr]

The speakers might still be worth buying at the right price, even if the panel repair was done by a non-ML person. I'd like to know the details of the repair first. But the best option is to look for a pair with a good history and they're located so you could listen to them yourself.

 

[Iansr]

Yes I agree. If the price was right I would still buy them, but the price he is asking is too much for a DIY repair. I've made him a more realistic offer, but I don't think he will accept.

 

[InterMechanico]

I agree with edwinr. With some patience and digging around, you should be able to locate a better pair. You could consider having an older pair refurbished by someone (like Just Real Music) and fully tested before having them shipped to you. I've seen used CLS 2z's go for less than 1K.

 

[Redux]

I think this is a high risk purchase. IMHO, panels should be purchased new or at least only demo-used.Far too many people play too loud and just don't treat them well. If they are in another country, they also need transport. Old panels don't like traveling. Transporting my old Quad ESL 63 resulted in huge repair costs.. The old CLS may be more robust, but still i would have been reluctant to purchase without at least hearing them first.