Power Cords for M/L 13a B212 Make a difference ?

[Robert D]

Again a skeptic here talking but doesn’t that seem the same as what we are talking about. If the Honda Civic is a standard cheap black power cord that comes with the units for free; then a Nordost or Shunyata would be the Mercedes S500 or BMW M5 with its higher price point?

Really referring to spending a lot on wires and then the main components are something like say Bose speakers.

For instance, my system is one Marantz receiver and a single amp. Wouldn't make a lot of sense for me to spend $3 to 4k on wires when those components are only worth $7k.

 

[amey01]

So I just realized amey01; you own the Shunyata Hydra Power Conditioner? Why did you spend the extra money on it for power conditioning instead of say a cheaper Panamax or Furman or even a Nordost QB8 or Shunyata Venom? If you remember you were one of the reasons I did not spend thousands on a streamer and went with the Chord and Mac Mini; so I take what a lot of you more experienced users here say Seriously in my researching. So why the Hydra? Isn’t that like $2k to $5k?

It's a power conditioner, not a power cable. ie. It is an active component. It does something. It also protects the equipment.

 

[jazzfish]

I first tried out power cables when I had CLS's a while back. Yes, power cords made a difference on preamps and power amps. So I tried them on the CLS's. I was not expecting much and the difference was not night and day, but yes, good power cords did make a difference. The speakers just sounded more stable. The soundstage and bass but seemed fuller.

Now I use Shunyata power cords (I always buy used when they are about half the price of new). The typical change with a good power cord is that the quiet between notes is blacker and the authority of the music is greater. I am currently using some relatively cheap ($150 each discontinued) power cords on my CLX's. I am fairly confident that some improvement could be obtained with better cords, but I they are not a priority right now.

So much in this hobby is subjective. Sometimes a system sounds right, other times it doesn't. The best way to judge power cords is to put them in your system, let them settle down, and then listen to some music. Then take them out! Do you miss them?

I am not suggesting that you go nuts with power cords. I typically spend about 8% of the list price of a component on a good power cord. I love the Shunyata cords and what they do for my system but I do not have one of their power conditioners.

Randy

 

[amey01]

I typically spend about 8% of the list price of a component on a good power cord.

Do you believe that this strategy gives you better performance than you would have got if you had just spend 8% more on whatever you were buying?

(I'm perfectly happy if you say "yes" - I'm just asking.)

If manufacturers/designers could beat other manufacturers's components which are priced 8% more, just by including a "decent" power cable, do you not think they would do that from the factory? After all, that's their job - to combine a mix of components in a design which sounds as "best" as possible for the money.

 

[Robert D]

If manufacturers/designers could beat other manufacturers's components which are priced 8% more, just by including a "decent" power cable, do you not think they would do that from the factory? After all, that's their job - to combine a mix of components in a design which sounds as "best" as possible for the money.

That's my thought exactly. Its not like Martin Logan speakers are being priced competitively. It seems like there isnt a lot of stiff competition in electrostats, especially since the market is small. Most buyers would pay a couple hundred dollars for better cords, they could even offer the cords as accessories. They just raised the price of the CLX by $5000, so I dont think they are scared of losing sales because of the price being too high.

 

[jazzfish]

Perhaps for precisely the reason that audiophiles have different views of power cords. Some might jump at the idea of paying a little more for a good quality power cord that the manufacturer designed herself. Others might think it wasn't worth it and balk at the idea of paying 8% more for a useless piece of wire.

The other reason is that audio companies tend to specialize. ARC made their own interconnects for a time (I had some) but then decided to leave that market.

 

[Len44]

They just raised the price of the CLX by $5000, so I dont think they are scared of losing sales because of the price being too high.

Well, maybe. I will say that their arbitrary (and to my mind, capricious) price bump has directly led to eliminating the CLX from consideration for my pending system-wide upgrade. I had not anticipated needing to spend time considering other speakers, but now all options are on the table, including other brands, as well as subs. Of course, I have the option of keeping the ML speakers I already have, so nothing urgent. But, pretty sure I would have already purchased the CLXs had the price not been raised.

 

[roberto]

Hola Chicos,

I think that I am going to be nailed here. Your CLXs power consumption is only less than 5 Watts from the wall socket or from your AC power conditioner. There is no current drain. I have a good power cables. I use Transparent brand on most of them. But these cables are connected to my power amps and preamps. Are connected to the devices that drain current. Here, I have noticed big changes when I did use thicker cables to power these devices. Also, my Signature Plus 3.5 BPT Balanced Power Conditioner, has a very heavy gauge power cord connected to the Mains AC socket wall.

I did hear an improved, with much dynamics and clear, transparent, with much quality sound, with no compression, full of nuances and much resolution. The bass improved substantially. The mid range opened up, with a truly sense of wide stage with a truly sense of 3D. The power cables should be connected to the devices that drain current. The power cables for the CLS, or the CLXs where only the current drain is less than 5 Watts, these cables do not need to be thick or special.

Think of this: The electrostatic speakers need a bias voltage circa 2KV. When the audio signal is applied to the speaker, there is a special circuit that detects this, and turns on the bias voltage circuit. This operation last only 1 second to charge completely the energy that it is needed for full operation. The voltage represents the water in a swimming pool. It is just quantity voltage, it is steady charge. No drain. The current is when you start to empty the pool, and this is not the case when powering the CLXs.

This is simple physics, it is wise to have a good power source and good contact from the wall or Power Conditioner. A simple rule is to touch the cable's plug after 15 to 20 minutes of operation. When you touch the connector, and it is a little warm, this cable should be change for a thicker gauge cable. All connectors should be cold. A little warm or hot, is telling that you should change them.

I wish that I could speak more fluent English, so I could express better myself, so please, excuse me!
Happy listening!

 

[Robert D]

Well, maybe. I will say that their arbitrary (and to my mind, capricious) price bump has directly led to eliminating the CLX from consideration for my pending system-wide upgrade. I had not anticipated needing to spend time considering other speakers, but now all options are on the table, including other brands, as well as subs. Of course, I have the option of keeping the ML speakers I already have, so nothing urgent. But, pretty sure I would have already purchased the CLXs had the price not been raised.

Maybe your response on this will be that of most of the market and the sales of the speaker will drop, precipitating a drop back to the old price. Either price is too much for me though,lol!

I wonder, how long do companies wait to see if the new price is working or not? Two quarters maybe?

 

[Len44]

Two quarters is probably about right. Alternately, if a replacement product or line is imminent, that may also be a consideration. An accurate crystal ball would be nice, tho.

 

[JLasher22443]

Ok here is what we found this weekend with our blind test. For a little background; we were both very skeptical going into this. My buddy has been a network and server engineer for close to 20 years and currently works for Microsoft. I myself have been in the networking field for a little over 10 years based in Video and VOIP. Before that I was an electrician licensed in Virginia and knew that this was not going to make an improvement or change on my system. Hence why my system is powered by cheap Best Buy conditioners (Panamax) and free black cords that come with the equipment. But after my addition of the two 20amp circuits I started to wonder.

We had 3 different setups and only one test track. We figured if it happened at all and we could hear a difference on one single track it would hold true for multiple tracks.

Setups were as follows: Each of us went in our own order of presentation to the tester.

Setup A: Was Nordost+Panamax (My assumption going in was this was going to be the best setup. Power+Conditioning)
Setup B: Nordost cables straight into the wall.
Setup C: Free Black Cords straight into the wall.

Nordost cables used were Blue Heaven to 15A's, Red Dawn to MC452, and Heimdall 2 to BHK PreAmp.

Source used was my VPI Prime and Gold Note PH-10 with Audioquest Leopard Tonearm cable and Water Interconnect cables. The power would be changed on the BHK Preamp, McIntosh MC452, and the 15A's for each test. The track used was Let It Happen by Tame Impala. Volume level stayed at Level 55 on the BHK which normally yields an 80-90 DB level when listening to music.

Now when we did the test both of us would start with one setup for each user but not stating which one A, B, or C was being tested; obviously. LOL I even went as far as making sure my Panamax units and all other equipment in the main rack stayed on so I couldn't look and see whether the Panamax was on or off to give me a bias view. Also I ensured that the Black Free cables and the Nordost Blue Heaven's stayed ran and on the floor to the 15A's so I couldn't tell which was powering on the speaker during each test. Again so no bias view if I only saw Nordost on the floor over to the speakers. My biggest fear was being able to see that a high priced wire was installed and that my brain would automatically assume it's better.

Last we setup my Extech 407736 Digital Sound Level Meter on a tripod directly behind our seating above our heads to see if the DB level would change per test. After each setup and start the presenter would sit behind the tester and monitor the Meter. And since I'm so anal we both agreed that no talking during the test would be mandatory. In fact my wife walked in to see if we needed anything and we had to start one test over because we assumed the meter could have changed the max DB level reading. LOL

So the results were this. Both of us preferred Setup B; the Nordost directly into the wall. Now if anyone could have seen our faces and how dumbfounded we were as to why we could even hear a difference at all you would have laughed. It didn't make any sense to us at all why we could hear and feel a change because of a stupid power cord. But, it is what it is. LOL

Setup A: Sound quality was smooth, warm, and defined. Bass was present and to us sounded great. Both of us agreed in our notes that it sounded wonderful.
Setup B: Sound quality was smooth, warm, and defined. Bass was present and to us again sounded wonderful. However, now we could feel the bass more in our feet and chest. The bass was vibrating our feet and chair more. Also in the song the finger snaps were more defined or felt more life like. When the music moved around the sound stage from left to right it was more defined and you could pin point exact locations while it moved across the sound stage. Like visually seeing the sound move.
Setup C: Sound quality was bright or harsh. We could still feel the bass in our feet but it sounded muddy and distorted. The snaps of the finger sounded sloppy and messy if that makes sense. The moving of the sound from left to right was grainy but still there. Imaging of the music was almost blurry. My buddy said in his notes it was like watching an old film on reel to reel.

Now what was even more confusing for us was the fact that the notes showed that Setup A & B had an average of 80-90 db level and the max for both was 90.2. Setup C dipped and averaged from 75-89 but its max was only 89.3. Now I know that isn't a big difference in DB but why be quieter when the setup sounded brighter and harsh to us? It didn't make sense that it was showing less DB but sounded brighter during the test.

Neither of us are reviewers or have done this type of thing before. So sorry for the wording and descriptions of what we heard. I hope it all makes sense.

For now my Panamax are only powering my home theater gear and the 2 channel listening is plugged directly into the wall with Nordost cables. Now I'm wondering what I need to get for protection against lightning storms or do I just not care and leave it as is and power off during suspect weather. Will a PS Audio Power Plant help. What about a Shunyata Everest, Denali, or Hydra would that be good. Or should I go all Nordost and get 2 of the QRT QB8 Mark II's to replace the Panamax all together.

And yes I know I'm going to get some users telling me to invest in better gear; but my gear is pretty decent I think. If I want to go better than the BHK and MC452 I'm looking at Amps above $15k and Preamps around $10k+. That's a lot of money. Instead we are talking about upgrading the Panamax and power for possibly around $5k. And the power will be constant for when and if I upgrade my Preamp and Amp later down the line.

Thanks for reading and sorry for the long post.

 

[spkrdctr]

I have done many double blind tests and they are very difficult and time consuming. My question is how many times did you guys go through each setup? Both of you going through once could be dumb luck that you both picked the same setup. If you went through all the unknown setups 5 times each it would start to show some variance. This is the real kicker. Going double blind almost always shows the same results. When the BOTH of you don't know what you are listening to, then by golly you have a first class test. I will not go into details on testing as no one on here would believe me. Needless to say. it is an eye opener. In the end it always comes down to just buying what you like. If we just talked about listening tests, the instrumented results are shocking. That's without even going double blind.

 

[JLasher22443]

I have done many double blind tests and they are very difficult and time consuming. My question is how many times did you guys go through each setup? Both of you going through once could be dumb luck that you both picked the same setup. If you went through all the unknown setups 5 times each it would start to show some variance. This is the real kicker. Going double blind almost always shows the same results. When the BOTH of you don't know what you are listening to, then by golly you have a first class test. I will not go into details on testing as no one on here would believe me. Needless to say. it is an eye opener. In the end it always comes down to just buying what you like. If we just talked about listening tests, the instrumented results are shocking. That's without even going double blind.

Please don't take this the wrong way but I think you are missing the point of my test.

Yes it was time consuming and may have been dumb luck; but we weren't going into the test to listen for the differences to see which cable was better or worse or made something sound warmer or brighter. We went into this test thinking people who spend money on power cords are; excuse me for saying; stupid as hell. LMAO!. There was no way a power cord was going to change the sound in my system for better or worse and I was not going to invest hard earned money on power for my system. The most money I ever spent was for Monster Speaker cables when I purchased my first set of Clarity's at Tweeter. My wife was even laughing at me saying that the salesman got me with those stupidly expensive speaker cables. LOL

That of course was until I got into Vinyl a few months ago. That's when I found out cables for analog do sound different and make a difference. And the only way I was able to purchase these cables for a test was because I sold a speaker which covered the cost. LOL

Now whether or not it was blind luck that we both thought one setup sounded better or more defined over the other two was beside the point. The fact of the matter was that both of us were shocked as hell we even heard a difference. LOL Does that make sense? We went in knowing it was all going to sound the same to us and we weren't going to be able to tell a difference.

So am I planning to go out and spend tens of thousands of dollars on power cables and a PS Power Plant or a Denali; No. I don't have the money. But am I now a believer; yes for the most part. I mean I heard the difference/change in sound for the better in my own system. I'm thinking once this whole COVID thing dies down I'm going to go to a HiFi show and listen to one of the Nordost comparison's or even an Audioquest one. But I'm still going to go in as a skeptic and try and catch them at their trickery. LOL Like I want to see them turning the volume up and be like ah ha I see the rabbit already in your hat; come from behind that screen Oz. LOL!

 

[ttocs]

I commend your effort! It's difficult to setup testing so as to be as unbiased as possible. It's a good idea to repeat the test a number of times to get better confidence in the results. Plus, it's even better to use folks who might be considered "hostile witnesses" (I've done this), people with normal ears, not like us with the special hearing.

The SPL meter is a nice touch and has some relevance. An answer to why there wasn't as much SPL with the brighter, harsher setup? Missing bass.

All amplifiers in my system are powered directly from the wall outlet, so this includes the 13A's. I'm a huge fan of dedicated circuits for amps. It's pointed out in Krell manuals to always plug directly into the wall outlet and not a conditioner.

 

[18000rpm]

Ignoring for a moment which sounded best, would you say there is DEFINITELY a difference in sound between the 3? If so that would be the biggest takeaway, and contradicts what a lot of naysayers say about power cables (that it's impossible for it to make a difference because of the miles of poor quality cable between your home and power station etc etc etc).

 

[ttocs]

Ignoring for a moment which sounded best, would you say there is DEFINITELY a difference in sound between the 3? If so that would be the biggest takeaway, and contradicts what a lot of naysayers say about power cables (that it's impossible for it to make a difference because of the miles of poor quality cable between your home and power station etc etc etc).

You might want to keep in mind that a major difference can be discerned by the fact that the Panamax is used in A. This adds more electronicals (Lisa Douglas/Green Acres tv show) that can have an effect on the power delivery vs plugging directly into the wall outlet.

My take on all this is that if you feed the amp really well, with at least the same gauge wire that's in the wall, you get the benefit of the amp performing the way it is designed to do. Just look at the amplifier manufacturers that openly state different ratings at the various circuit specs. When plugged into a 15A circuit the amp can derive a certain amount of power, 20A allows it to be more powerful. Heck, the only way you can get full power from a D'Agostino Relentless amp is to wire it to a 30 Amp circuit.

So yes, there's a difference. But I've only experienced a difference with wire gauge and circuit limitations.

 

[JLasher22443]

Ignoring for a moment which sounded best, would you say there is DEFINITELY a difference in sound between the 3? If so that would be the biggest takeaway, and contradicts what a lot of naysayers say about power cables (that it's impossible for it to make a difference because of the miles of poor quality cable between your home and power station etc etc etc).

Yes I could tell the difference in Bass for sure; I mean it was easily noticeable. Now since I've been plugged directly into the wall the past few days I've noticed I'm picking up bleed over from some sort of electronic in the room whether from my system or from outside the house. We are in the country and have some neighbors who are into 2 way radios heavily. So that tells me I have to get some sort of conditioner or regenerator and soon. It only started happening after removing the Panamax. It's very irritating when watching a movie and it pops in during a quiet scene.

MC452 Amp will be staying plugged into the wall but the PreAmp and the Speakers will be plugged into whatever I decide on purchasing.

Thinking I'm going to have to spend some money on a quality unit. I'm going to be looking through the member systems and seeing what a lot of you are using. I already noticed amey01 has the Shunyata Hydra which I've heard great things about. Thinking I might stick with Nordost tho and go with their QRT QB8 and the QRT QKore1. But I'm not sure. Going to discuss it with others as well. I also like the PS Audio Power Plants.

 

[jnorris]

You might want to keep in mind that a major difference can be discerned by the fact that the Panamax is used in A. This adds more electronicals (Lisa Douglas/Green Acres tv show) that can have an effect on the power delivery vs plugging directly into the wall outlet.

My take on all this is that if you feed the amp really well, with at least the same gauge wire that's in the wall, you get the benefit of the amp performing the way it is designed to do. Just look at the amplifier manufacturers that openly state different ratings at the various circuit specs. When plugged into a 15A circuit the amp can derive a certain amount of power, 20A allows it to be more powerful. Heck, the only way you can get full power from a D'Agostino Relentless amp is to wire it to a 30 Amp circuit.

So yes, there's a difference. But I've only experienced a difference with wire gauge and circuit limitations.

That's not how it works, actually. The breaker does not limit the amount of current delivered to your device, nor does it impede that delivery in any way. What it does is pop when the current being requested is greater than its rating. So if the D'Agostino is on a 15A circuit and the breakers don't pop, then it's using less than 15 amps.

 

[JLasher22443]

That's not how it works, actually. The breaker does not limit the amount of current delivered to your device, nor does it impede that delivery in any way. What it does is pop when the current being requested is greater than its rating. So if the D'Agostino is on a 15A circuit and the breakers don't pop, then it's using less than 15 amps.

Actually to be even more specific the circuit breaker is designed to actually only allow up to 80% of the overall amperage. So if on a 15 amp breaker it would trip at around 12 amps of usage and a 20 amp at about 16 amps.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Oh my. Another PC thread. For what its worth, folks who post on WBF don't discuss if they make any difference. The discussion is about what after market PC sounds best with what gear.

About a year ago, I did a quick AB using my Luxman D06u CDP, between a top tier 12 gauge Pangea PC I bought from Audio Advisor ($50 +/-) and my $1K "digital" Shunyata Research PC. No contest. Not even close.

Have fun.