New speaker positioning????

[CLIFF]

Hi guys, i need someone to try this ,as i cannot figure out why this works in my set up. So here goes,.once your logans are set correctly distance from walls ,toe in, and rake try turning one speaker about half to one inch back out from your toe in position! This seems to increase the sound quality in the sweet spot. Granted the sound stage moves to one side about the same distance of the amount towed out. This doesnt make sense to me??? I tried doing it in turn, to the other speaker,thinking the back wall might be at an angle {nearly every wall is by some degree.] or pehaps it was that my listening room is open on one side? But no the effect is just as strong when done to the other speaker. And to me this is where i get the best sound ,is it my ears??? Feed back pleeeeease .its driving me nuts trying to figure this out

 

[Gordon Gray]

Cliff,

In my experience, once everything is "tuned in", 1/2" to 1" is a very large amount. That's the good news and the bad news about ML's. What you are experiencing is not atypical.

I'd try to move the speakers out into the room a bit more. I speculate that this may be the source of the problem. I've found after owning four different models over some twenty years plus, five feet from the panel to the back wall is a very good starting point. The greater the distance from the back wall, the less impact the room will have on the overall sound.

And, of course, make sure all measurements (toe in, rake angle, etc) are within 1/8" for both speakers.

Hope that helps.

Good luck.

GG

 

[guido]

What Gordon says!^

Additionally, try some sound diffusing surface behind the speakers.

Good luck!

Guido F.

 

[TDIMike]

Not to thread jack..

I've read lots of comments on how to setup ELS MLs on here, and I'm assuming those don't necessarily apply to the Motion range?

 

[CLIFF]

Hi guys ,thanks for the imput.my speakers are 2 foot from the wall cannot move forward much more, to clarify, its the rear of one side that is open, there is about 8 feet off wall along side the speaker position and then, about 8 foot open to the side ,if this makes sense. I have a unclutted bare wall behind the speakers ,with the rear being vertical blinds even the side walls follow a similar pattern . The acoustics are good,exept for the distance from the rear wall.all is as it shoud be . And taking into acount trying this on one speaker ,and then the other ,cannot see why this would be ?? Yuo would think distance from the rear wall would affect both speakers / can someone humor me and try it .so at least that can be eliminated, like i say logic is not prevailing here ,at all cheers guys.

 

[sb6]

Hi guys ,thanks for the imput.my speakers are 2 foot from the wall cannot move forward much more, to clarify, its the rear of one side that is open, there is about 8 feet off wall along side the speaker position and then, about 8 foot open to the side ,if this makes sense. I have a unclutted bare wall behind the speakers ,with the rear being vertical blinds even the side walls follow a similar pattern . The acoustics are good,exept for the distance from the rear wall.all is as it shoud be . And taking into acount trying this on one speaker ,and then the other ,cannot see why this would be ?? Yuo would think distance from the rear wall would affect both speakers / can someone humor me and try it .so at least that can be eliminated, like i say logic is not prevailing here ,at all cheers guys.

If the left vs right walls are not mirror images of each other, lots of strange thing can happen. That may be your culprit.

 

[CLIFF]

HI sb6, BUT WHY WOULD IT WORK THE SAME FOR EACH SPEAKER, WHEN YOU TOW OUT EITHER ONE ,ONE AT A TIME ??? IF IT ONLY WORKED WITH ONE SPEAKER I WOULD UNDER STAND AND EXCEPT. MY FIRST THOUGHT WAS THE LAY OUT! BUT BOTH SPEAKERS? DOING IT ONE AT A TIME .YOU HAVE R/H SPEAKER MOVING OUT AWAY FROM THE OPEN SIDE AND THE L/H SPEAKER MOVING TOWARDS THE OPEN SIDE,THIS IS WHATS THROWING ME!!! CAN SOMEONE TRY THIS WITH THEIR RIGS, AND LET US KNOW HOW IT SOUNDS ON YOUR SYSTEM .I KNOW IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE THE DIFERENCE IN MY SYSTEM IS LARGE.

 

[roberto]

Hola Cliff. Perhaps you are getting a wave reflection on some point and that's what you are listening from your Odysseys.

But, have you tried the flash light technique? Are you spiking your Odysseys? The open side is sounding better that the other side? Is the floor wood or solid?

A picture will give to us a better understanding.

The best advice that I can give to you is: Trust your ears! They will tell you exactly if the golden seat is right or needs more tweaks.

Usually both speakers are in the same plane and in the same rake position. Raking them will produce an outstanding image and stage, but only at the golden seating position. You can not share this stage with a friend, only if he or she will be seated at that golden position.

Use them the way that you feel its right and your ears are celebrating the quality sound of them. Happy listening!

 

[sb6]

HI sb6, BUT WHY WOULD IT WORK THE SAME FOR EACH SPEAKER, WHEN YOU TOW OUT EITHER ONE ,ONE AT A TIME ??? IF IT ONLY WORKED WITH ONE SPEAKER I WOULD UNDER STAND AND EXCEPT. MY FIRST THOUGHT WAS THE LAY OUT! BUT BOTH SPEAKERS? DOING IT ONE AT A TIME .YOU HAVE R/H SPEAKER MOVING OUT AWAY FROM THE OPEN SIDE AND THE L/H SPEAKER MOVING TOWARDS THE OPEN SIDE,THIS IS WHATS THROWING ME!!! CAN SOMEONE TRY THIS WITH THEIR RIGS, AND LET US KNOW HOW IT SOUNDS ON YOUR SYSTEM .I KNOW IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE THE DIFERENCE IN MY SYSTEM IS LARGE.

It could work for either speaker because the side wall reflection for 1 speaker is different than the other hence, moving 1 speaker changes the overall stereo sound delay at the sweet spot.

I also agree with the previous post - more details about the room would also help. Another test you could do is to sit closer to the speakers. Do you still get the better quality?

 

[CLIFF]

Hi roberto and sb6. I may be just a dum bum:}} but cannot see how both speakers can achieve the same results one at a time, unless there is a anomally with the front and back walls one would think it was a side wall issue if turning only one side of the two speakers worked. However both do it when either one is turned out .the front and back walls are totally bare of anything save vertical blinds at one end, from roof to floor,i will attempt to get some pics up this weekend. In regards sitting closer,moving two foot closer you can just hear the high point or the low point? Of the sound wave . Have just about eliminated this with forward rake adjustement if i move closer the sweet spot and imaging disapear sooo the mystery deepens:}} looking forward to your comments after i send pics of the room

 

[roberto]

Just do this and report your findings: Play any musical content, specially with high frequency material, like pop music, and get very closer to each stat panel. You can bring the level down, where you can put your ear to the stat panel to listen to. The whole stat panel must produce sound and the same SPL. From top to bottom, and from left to right. If there is a hole at the panel, or dull sound from part of the panel, and this could be at both panels too, (a certain point where there is no sound at all), this might cause uneven sound.

Both speakers are showing to you the same behavior. If you could move them just for a quick test to another room, or where you have them, but placing them in the same condition to both speakers, will tell us a little more. There is no right or left Odyssey. Both should be equal.

I am trying to figure it out why you have that kind of behavior in your room. I will wait for your pics. Happy listening!

 

[CLIFF]

Hi roberto,now your talking, okay, can certainly listen up and down both panels, moving the speakers will be a pain in the neck,i am breaking in some double runs of anti cable i have had cryo'ed, four twisted runs to each speaker ,solid 12 awg .it is a real pain. Set up is a cut lunch and a waterbag.[scuse my ozzie slang,] translation is available :}} great advice mate, will give it ago on the weekend and post some pics.

 

[roberto]

Cliff, you must have a lot of patience with me. My primary language is Spanish, and my English is not too good. Please do not use a lot of your expressions, slangs, because I will not understand your meaning. Sorry about this. But I do get a lot of good sense of humor from you!

Getting back to your problem, your Odysseys have bi-wired capability. It is good to have heavier speakers cable gauge. No 14 to 12 will be enough. Also, for crystal highs, ML loves silver cable. You can get them plated, not solid. Remember that the electrons travel at the out side edge of the cables, then plated can be use. DH Labs have some (www.silversonic.com) and their price is very reasonable. They do ship everywhere of the world.

I do believe that part of the panel on both speakers is louder than other part. There is a washing procedure for them. You can try it, if that is case, or the bad news is: you need a new stat panels. Very expensive my friend.

I had recovered many stat panels, just doing the washing procedure. It really works: http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...-Shower-Cleaning-PDF&highlight=washing+panels

Your Odyssey model is one of the best sounding speakers that ML had made. I do like them a lot. Very musical, with a super stable stage. The right size of the musical instruments, and outstanding timbre. The bass is very deep and well handled. I wish to you, a very happy listening.

 

[CLIFF]

Hi roberto ,one last bit of slang ,i am from the county[ the bush,is our term for the county areas here],off a farm,but along time ago. This saying is so true for me ,:you can take the boy from the bush, but you cannot take the bush from the boy:" this so true for me i miss living in the county{bush} anyway roberto your english is good mate! Washed my panels about a year ago.got the sparkle back again. I have some darwin cable silver interconects, these do tend to add a bit of brightness,but have more detail. I have been looking at solid silver wire for speaker wire,but just cannot bring myself to buy it at the price it is, was going to do it myself and run it in some ptfe plastic tube. I have looked at the silver coated copper.i will give it a go if you think it works roberto. I havent tried many cables the best so far has been copper power cable 8awg from a car audio, supplier 372 strand for speaker wire .the solid anti cable i am running in, 12awg even with doubling it , lacks base,compaired to the power cable . So i am going to try some 8 awg 1372 strand from robot world usa on the net, the one thing i have learnt from the anti cable is that running in is because of the thickness on the insulation ,anti cable has very thin insulation baked on enamel?? It was sounding good within a hour of running it. Getting back to my panels, i am waiting for them to die ,its now their twelth year,but still sound good? So not sure what a dieing panel sounds like,have you had any die on you?? I do have to say bi amping is the way to go ,logans are certainly power hungry,i have a six channel audiophile mosfet amp a redgum, thats been moded by them with larger mosfets to handle any dip in the ohms, that logans are known for .its only about 3 months old but is running in well. I went for this amp as it cost over here $3800 so $1000 bucks for each mono amp :}} check it out at redgum audio. Had another redgum six channel before this one ,it had less power but it ran 6 to 8 hours a day hooked up to the tv as well it finaly blew a mosfet after 12 years, also left running 24/7,i dont run a centre, i think the logans do a good job without one ,i am more a sterio sort of guy. The redgum has lots of air and is very valve like ,very neutral ,the guy who builds them is a ex repair guy who knew he could do better.so did!! If ever there was a surround amp to bi amp this is the one its one big heat sink with the boards built right on top. Ea channel is separated from the other,and all wire runs are as short as possible.i firmly believe when it comes to our hobby,that less is more and neutrality wins allways. And dont believe anything unless you hear it ,and tread your own path :}}} look forward to your comments once you see the pics cheers roberto ,cliff.

 

[Bernard]

Cliff, your posts are difficult to read as they are one big block of text. Look at the one immediately above.

Try breaking them up into paragraphs. You'll get more feedback that way. I never read big blocks of text.

 

[roberto]

When you did the washing about a year ago, they came back, right? I think, with all due respect, that you have a panels issue. Part of them are OK, and another is not producing the same intensity, the same SPL as the part that its ok. Try to wash them again. Perhaps you can bring them back again.

It looks that the panels are not having the same bias DC voltage to all the surface of the panel. I highly recommend to you, to wash them again. I do not think that the problem is your power amp or the speaker cables, or having more power to drive them.

If you read your Odyssey specs, with a total of only 20 Watts per channel, your Odyssey can sing beautiful. So, I do not think it is a matter of power, its a matter of stat panels. Not a very good news.

When you tell us that you blew your power amp, this is telling me that your stat panels had lost efficiency, and they need a lot of power to sing. Time to replace them.

I know that the panels are expensive, but they come with a five year warranty, like new speakers! If you have any issue with the panels, just report their serial no, and you will have them replaced again from the factory, free of charge. You only pay the transportation.

If you think this, its like buying new Odysseys for the price of the service stat panels. Yes, I know. Sometimes we have dead panels. We have a saying here in Costa Rica, we say "Shi* happens!". I can not think any other possibility of your problem, and yes, that will drive any of us crazy. Happy listening!

 

[Duke]

Hi Cliff,

Just a few thoughts. Using an LED headlamp in your darkened listening room, sit in your sweet spot and focus on each of your two Odysseys. Does your headlamp reflection hit a symmetrical equvalent of both of your panels?

If you adjust your rake using a level, what degree of rake are you using? I listen to clsIIz so that is easy, it is straight up and down. If you have your panels in a traditional Odyssey upward rake, can you fasten or hold or have a friend hold a laser level to the front of your panel shooting out 90 degrees? That might help visualize what is hitting your ears at your sweet spot. I use a Porter Cable Robotoolz RT-3610-3 that offers 3 lasers at 90 degrees in 3 directions. Something like this level would work. My speakers are 9' 8" from my seat. I think the rake of an Odyssey or Prodigy can easily vary by mulitple inches if you do not check using a laser level of this nature because you cannot clamp to your side rails like I do with my clsIIz speaker. I also hold the laser against my panel and see if the speakers are symmetrical along the vertical axis.

Another method I use is to sit in the sweet spot holding the dumb end of a tape measure to my forehead. My electronics helper runs the tape to the front panel and tries to hold a level to the tape and putting the tape to my panel. We get my panel within a 1/4 inch using that method. It will be faster going if you have an assistant for an hour.

 

[CLIFF]

Point taken, bernard.

 

[CLIFF]

Hi duke. Manythanks for your words of wizdom,i have used the torch method, but prefer the tape myself,the rake may be a little forward of 90 deg,but not by much, found the vertical sweet spot,for my chair a while back.

Did the rake by counting the turn of the spikes,but i think the laser is something i need to find,this sounds like a good bit of kit.

 

[CLIFF]

Hi roberto have posted my system in the system section ,please excuse the quality ,thought the new ipad might have done a better job than it did,but good enough i think.
One thing that i wish showed up more clearly, is this massive heat sink on the bottem of my amp :}}