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[styxfla]

Hi folks.
I'm really new to this the Martin Logan world, but after hearing a pair of Vantage speakers at a home theater shop, I simply had to get them. The sound was extraordinary. A week earlier in a general upgrade of my AV equipment, I purchased a Yamaha 1900 receiver. Is the Yammy/ML pairing going to be a poor match? (My listening room is smallish, perhaps 11 by 12 feet). Will I need a pre-amp of some kind?

John

 

[Feltran]

You won't need a pre-amp necessarily (though it couldn't hurt), your receiver will perform that job. You will want a separate amplifier, though. Receivers just don't amplify signals well enough to do justice to Martin Logans. They sound great powered by receivers, don't get me wrong. They sound a lot better powered by an amplifier.

 

[rockeratheart]

hey styxfla,

I agree with feltran, your rec. will do an acceptable job of pre-amp shaping. The couple chances I have had hearing MLs through a receiver alone, and then through a rec. to a separate amp, wow. Like going from little debbies and old coffee to a wonderful flowerless chocolate cake and cappuccino!! Well worth it. I will, hopefully soon, be using that exact same set-up. Source-AVR-amp-MLs.

Congrats on the purchase too.

ben

 

[styxfla]

Newbie and Yamaha

Thanks Ben and Feltran. Is there a particular amp that you would recommend? And if I get it, should it be wired in conjunction with or independently of the Yammy, which, I guess, I would assign to other duties?

John

 

[Feltran]

Which amp depends on a few things. Most importantly, what's your budget, and are you doing strictly 2 channel, or also multi-channel?

Your Yamaha receiver will be used as a pre-amp, so you'll use the RCA outputs from the receiver to your amplifier, and then speaker level outputs from the amplifier to your speakers.

 

[CCH]

If your budget is quite limited...

...you might try one of the larger NAD amps (e.g., the 218 THX), which are often available used for about half the original list price (even less if you're lucky). They are solid and reliable, though certainly not in the same league as amps by McIntosh, Krell, Bryston, Plinius, etc. -- but these cost a few thousand, not a few hundred, dollars. On the other hand, they (the NADs) are significantly more capable than the amp section of any receiver I've ever seen. Also, if you ever do upgrade to a better amp, you can always use the NAD for other channels in a home theater setup. That's my two cents, anyway. Good luck!

 

[tsmooth]

Hi folks.
I'm really new to this the Martin Logan world, but after hearing a pair of Vantage speakers at a home theater shop, I simply had to get them. The sound was extraordinary. A week earlier in a general upgrade of my AV equipment, I purchased a Yamaha 1900 receiver. Is the Yammy/ML pairing going to be a poor match? (My listening room is smallish, perhaps 11 by 12 feet). Will I need a pre-amp of some kind?

John

I would not worry about a preamp at this point, but I would look into amplification for those Vantages. Many people here (including myself) would recommend Sunfire amps for ML electrostatic speakers. They make excellent 2, 5, and 7 channel amps depending on your application. Basically, you would use the receiver as your preamp. All you would have to do is connect the receiver’s “preouts” to your amplifier via RCA cables, connect the speaker cables to your amp, and you are ready to go.

 

[styxfla]

Thanks, TSMooth. I'll research and cost out that option along with those suggested by CCH.

John

 

[styxfla]

I appreciatre your suggestions, CCH. I'll get onto an examination of each of them.

John

 

[styxfla]

TSmooth

I just spoke with a Sunfire dealer concerning his 5 channel grand theater model. I read from the Vantage spec sheet the listing "Impedance Nominal: 4 Ohms; Minimum: 1.0 ohms at 20khz." As much as he wanted to sell me this or any other Sunfire model, he said that the Sunfire Amp would simply "turn off" if the impedance dropped below 2 ohms and most certainly at 1 ohm. He seemed to feel that I would have to go to the $5000-plus level to a McIntosh or Bryson (?) to find something that could handle the ML Vantages. Does this make sense? Incidentally, he sounded very sincere and not as if trying to work a bait and switch.

John

 

[Feltran]

I've been powering my Spires with a Sunfire TGA 5200 (bought it for $1500) for two weeks now, and I've run into no problem whatsoever. Many other people on these forums also use Sunfire amps.

It doesn't make sense that anything about the speaker could make the amplifier turn off. Perhaps if the signal from the pre-amp dropped to 1 ohm it would turn off, but that's not something you have to worry about.

 

[C.A.P]

TSmooth

I just spoke with a Sunfire dealer concerning his 5 channel grand theater model. I read from the Vantage spec sheet the listing "Impedance Nominal: 4 Ohms; Minimum: 1.0 ohms at 20khz." As much as he wanted to sell me this or any other Sunfire model, he said that the Sunfire Amp would simply "turn off" if the impedance dropped below 2 ohms and most certainly at 1 ohm. He seemed to feel that I would have to go to the $5000-plus level to a McIntosh or Bryson (?) to find something that could handle the ML Vantages. Does this make sense? Incidentally, he sounded very sincere and not as if trying to work a bait and switch.

John

Get a new dealer ! Sunfire are damn good amps that are stable at low impedences. You will not have any issues with it . He is "selling"you on a amp you do not need!

 

[tsmooth]

Simply stated, that is crap. I have been running a Sunfire Cinema Grand (200w x 5) biamped (one channel to the woofer, the other to the panels) to Vistas and the remaining channel to the Motif for over a year. This thing has yet to get hot to the touch or close to clipping, even when pushed for live rock DVDs, movies, etc. What you should look for is amps that can double the watts as the impedance is halved (200w at 8 ohms, 400 at 4 ohms, etc); ML speakers like current. Any Sunfire amp will do this without question. As a sales man, I would try to sell you $5000 amp over a $1000-$1500 any day. It depends on your pocketbook, but for my money it is Sunfire all the way.

PS, if it is good enough for Jonathan (see System #45 - Monolith IIIx, Sequell IIb, SL3XC), it is good enough for me.

 

[styxfla]

Get a new dealer ! Sunfire are damn good amps that are stable at low impedences. You will not have any issues with it . He is "selling"you on a amp you do not need!

Feltran, CAP and TSmith:

I relayed your comments to the dealer (who was a different guy than the salesman with whom I had spoken earlier), and, to shorten a long story, he agreed with the three of you. So I've got the Sunfire on order and will report back on its effectiveness.

Thanks to each ofyou again for your assistance.

John

 

[styxfla]

bi-amping

Simply stated, that is crap. I have been running a Sunfire Cinema Grand (200w x 5) biamped (one channel to the woofer, the other to the panels) to Vistas and the remaining channel to the Motif for over a year. This thing has yet to get hot to the touch or close to clipping, even when pushed for live rock DVDs, movies, etc. What you should look for is amps that can double the watts as the impedance is halved (200w at 8 ohms, 400 at 4 ohms, etc); ML speakers like current. Any Sunfire amp will do this without question. As a sales man, I would try to sell you $5000 amp over a $1000-$1500 any day. It depends on your pocketbook, but for my money it is Sunfire all the way.

PS, if it is good enough for Jonathan (see System #45 - Monolith IIIx, Sequell IIb, SL3XC), it is good enough for me.

T smooth:

Re; BI-AMPING

Allow me to follow up with a second qestion in light of the quallity of your advice. I did purchase the Sunfire system with the 200 watt output per 5 channels. In fact, I will be using only two channels for the two Vantage speakers. I understand from the Sunfire manual that is is possible to "bi-amp," which in my not entirely clear understanding means one can bring the wattage of two channels to bear on one speaker by a particular wiring arrangement, or, more largely, with my two speakers I could bi-amp two channels per speaker, which I guess would increase the input per speaker from 200 to 400 watts.

Two questions. With my relatively small room (11-12 feet or so) is there really any need to increase the wattage of each speaker by "bi-amping"?

If so, basically, how is the wiring done? ( I assume one links two channels by wiring (rather than one) from the pre-amp to the amp and then on to the speakers.

Let me say that I'd rather not complicate a simple one channel to one speaker link if there won't be significant gains by going the bi-amping route. I apologize for what probably is a pretty dumb effort to pose this question. But I'm learning.

John

System elements
Sony XBR 52-6
Sony Blu-Ray 350
Yamaha RXV 1900
Sunfire Grand Theater (200 watts X 5)
Martin Logan Vantages Left and Right

 

[Feltran]

Vantages use PoweredForce technology to drive the woofer, and as such they should not be bi-amped.

 

[tsmooth]

Feltran pretty much quoted that right from the manual. They do not recommend bi-amping with the Vantage because, unlike the Vista, the woofer section is powered. The reason I decided to go this route in my system was that I loved the bottom end of the Sunfire “voltage” source and the mid to highs of the “current” source. This configuration allowed me to match the strengths of my speaker with the strengths of my amplifier. After a day of listening, switching, listening again, switching, etc. I would not go back to the old configuration. I did notice that my tastes ranked the overall experience: 1) bi-amp 2) current source 3) voltage source. The “current” source softens up vocals and instruments for critical listening, but loosens up the low end. The “voltage” source gives back a bit of that high-end magic, but provides tight bass that has presence. I would toggle back and forth with some music that you are quite familiar with and see what style suits you.

I would assume because of the receiver/equipment you would be expanding this setup for 5.1 or 7.1 home theater as well? If so, this is where you are really going to enjoy this amplifier. I use the “current” source on my Motif and it has really brought out the best in movies and multi-channel music. The dialog is clear and the effects are spot on. This amplifier is really a great match for hybrid music/movie systems. Use the remaining amp channels for the surrounds left and right and the receiver channels if you want to add surround back left and right.

I would also assume your receiver came with a mic for optimizing your configuration in your room? That is a good feature to play around and get familiar with. My Denon-3808 (and many other receivers) takes measurements at all different frequencies and adds or subtracts dbs at each to achieve the flattest possible response in your room. Due to the size, reflectivity, and shape of our listening spaces, some frequencies receive a boost or null that can give inaccurate reproduction of sound. Your owner’s manual should be able to give you more information but using this feature should really help tame your room.

Last, search around this site about room treatments, one of the most important aspects of a room that is commonly looked over.

Well, once again, welcome and enjoy the new purchases!