ML's and loud rock?

[Tone Deaf]

Hi,

New to the forums, and ML, so please be patient!

Yesterday I auditioned a pair of Vantages, which are currently tied against Audio Physic Virgo V's on my short list. The ML's where being driven by a Pass Labs Int-150, and sound very impressive, the sound stage being much larger and more to scale than anything the traditional cabinet offerings could muster (though I must say the AP's are almost invisible and incredibly exciting to listen through).

However .... the dealer offered some reservations regarding the practicalities of the ML's given my specific needs: Firstly the room size (70sqMeters), but more significantly the harder edge of my music tastes. My library ranges from opera, through acoustic folk, "mainstream alternative" (theres an oxymoron if ever there was one), then into the likes of the Foo Fighters, and some Nu metal! Its the later end and the possible volumes that caused the concern, and he stated that I may end up having some problems and degradation with the harder music at higher volumes (45-48 on the Pass labs).

So my question to the experienced forumites here: Is the dealer correct, have any of you had problems or damage arising from moderately high volumes (I am not talking ear popping abuse), Any degradation of clarity and separation in this territory?

Thanks in advance for any insights you may have.

Cheers,

Stephen

 

[tonepub]

If you really like to rock out, you might want to consider a pair of Summits.

I enjoyed the Vantages when we had them in for review, but when I really wanted to crank heavy music, that was their only limitation. But the Summits play way louder than I ever need to listen and even a freind of mine with Wilsons was quite impressed at the power of the Summits.

If all else fails, have the sales guy get out of the room while you crank your favorite discs and see for yourself if they get loud enough.

If they want to make the sale, it's the least they can do for you!

Good luck....

 

[Joey_V]

Though I've heard several dynamic speakers which I felt were better at spur-of-the-moment dynamics than my speakers, I don't think that this is necessarily a weakness of ML's higher line up (i.e. Summits).

Can you do better? Yes.

Can you do worse? Oh yes.

There have been some situations where I felt that a particular dynamic speaker loaded the room better and more realistically, but not enough for me to sell.

 

[Horchem1972]

Logans will play loud

You will greatly increase the dynamic range by crossing them over around 100hz.I will probably take a beating on this though.As long as you use a quality subwoofer,such a Velodyne,Rel,Martin Logan etc.I would also recommend this crossover point on any DVD source material.The LFE channel on DVD's will destroy speaker woofers if played extremely loud.I use this system and my 1987 Monoliths II's have been trouble free with the original panels and woofers.I routinely play music and movies between 100 and 106Db.

 

[Bernard]

............I routinely play music and movies between 100 and 106Db.

You may want to reconsider this, or you may be headed for tinnitus. I have always jealously protected my hearing, especially since it is acute, and still I got tinnitus a few years ago. The first few weeks were absolute hell on earth. Fortunately it has subsided to low levels now. Believe me, tinnitus is no fun.

 

[Rich]

You will greatly increase the dynamic range by crossing them over around 100hz.I will probably take a beating on this though.As long as you use a quality subwoofer,such a Velodyne,Rel,Martin Logan etc.I would also recommend this crossover point on any DVD source material.The LFE channel on DVD's will destroy speaker woofers if played extremely loud.I use this system and my 1987 Monoliths II's have been trouble free with the original panels and woofers.I routinely play music and movies between 100 and 106Db.

What works for the old monoliths has little or no application with the Vantages and Summits. They are an entirely different speaker, especially where the bass is concerned.

As for the Vantages or Summits breaking down with heavy metal or rock music played loudly, I don't believe this is a limitation of the speaker but of the amplifier that is driving them. Make sure you have an amplifier of sufficient current and wattage delivery and you should have no problem with either of these speakers playing any music at higher volumes without losing image, clarity, and soundstage. If you are talking a high quality amplifier like the Pass, I would recommend one with a minimum output of 250 watts per channel for your needs.

 

[tonepub]

It also depends somewhat on the room size. If you have a small to medium sized room the Vantage will probably be just fine.

Again, your idea of loud and mine might be two different things as well!

I had a guy stop by our place and tell me my system was no good because it wouldn't play 120db like his Wilsons would! He also couldn't hear the waitress at lunch. Hmmmm.

To each their own!

But most importantly, just get the speaker that fits your room, budget and volume requirements....

 

[C.A.P]

As a rule the bigger the panel the more it will be dynamic. That being said you also need a lot of power and CURRENT to drive them at those levels.

 

[SteveInNC]

I have Ascent "I"s, previous generation, and I listen to everything from acoustic to Pink Floyd to jazz to electronica. I will say that a sub helps. I auditioned my speakers with and without, and the punch is significantly better with. Having said that, I used mine without for about eight months and enjoyed them thoroughly until I got my subs (Depth x 2).

As mentioned, the panels require an amp with high current handling. At some frequencies, the speaker impedance gets as low as 0.8 ohms, which will play hell with amplifiers. Another factor is that MLs play so cleanly that they don't sound as loud as some other speakers.

 

[Joey_V]

If you want just loud, the Summits will play plenty loud in a moderate room.... more than enough to bleed your ears out before audibly clipping.

Point to consider, when I demo my system and I play Crouching Tiger OST, I can get up to volumes where the airframe panel of my Summits would actually vibrate (visually noticeable) when the bass kicks.

I don't know if I want to go any louder than that...

 

[edwinr]

Buy Summits if you like to play your rock nice and loud. You won't regret it.

 

[Peter_Klim]

You may want to reconsider this, or you may be headed for tinnitus. I have always jealously protected my hearing, especially since it is acute, and still I got tinnitus a few years ago. The first few weeks were absolute hell on earth. Fortunately it has subsided to low levels now. Believe me, tinnitus is no fun.

I got tinitus too about 3 years ago (now I'm only 38). Which is why I am hardly here on the forums.

Can't even listen to the car stereo w/o using ear plugs to protect my ears from hurting (the highs kill). So be warned mi amigo.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Joey,

Out of curiosity, what material do you play where you can see the air frames move and how loud are you playing this music?

If you are seeing the frame moving, that would suggest that your Summits aren't firmly resting on the floor, and, IMHO, that would suggest that you're in serious need of some speaker / floor isolation devices.

When I added the BDR pucks between my wood floor and the Summit spikes, the improvement in vibration damping and the resultant increase in transparency, imaging, quickness, etc. was significant.

Just a thought Doctor.

GG

Oh yes, the purpose of the thread. I was able to play my SL3's quite loud, approaching 100db on the loud portions. On the Summits, it's not an issue. However, my average listening level has decreased by probably 5 to 10db with the Summits as a result of the speakers transparency and clarity. My listening levels are now in the upper 80's to mid 90's max.

And regarding the gentleman who listens at 100 to 105db, be VERY, VERY careful. You are clearly risking long term, permanent hearing damage. FWIW, the loudness level in a live symphony concert, in full crescendo mode, may reach 90db max.

 

[Tone Deaf]

Thanks for the input fellas. I should qualify my statement by saying that the "loud" listening probably only accounts for 5-10% of the listening sessions, and my real concern is getting the sound out into the 70 SqMeter room for general listening rather than the more focused and relaxed "sitting with a glass of wine" sessions.

Unfortunately at this stage the budget won't run to the Summits and their very imaginative European price levels (around 11/12K EUROS if my info is correct!) I think the only real solution will be a home demo of the Vantages vs the Virgos.

I was very impressed with the Pass Labs Int-150, but I may try the Pass Pre infront of a Primare A32 power to see if that helps.

Cheers,

Stephen

 

[Rich]

I think the only real solution will be a home demo of the Vantages vs the Virgos.

This is the only way you will know for sure. Try to demo a pair of Vantages that have been broken in so you get good bass. I wouldn't think they would have too much problem with that size room, but the question is whether they will fill the room as well as the Virgos. Let us know how it ends up.

 

[Bernard]

............ I should qualify my statement by saying that the "loud" listening probably only accounts for 5-10% of the listening sessions................

That may well be all that it takes to damage your hearing.

 

[Dreamer]

I had a guy stop by our place and tell me my system was no good because it wouldn't play 120db like his Wilsons would! He also couldn't hear the waitress at lunch. Hmmmm.

Have you noticed that just about every Wilson devotee has signifigant hearing loss for low freq's an pretty much is completely deaf to anything below "polite conversation" level?.

The reason most Wilson owners don't like Martin Logans is that they simply can't hear anything unless the preamp is turned up to at least halfway...

Just an observation based on my personal experience...

--Richard

 

[C.A.P]

Wilson = Wasted Investment Low Sonics Or None...........

They are all big boomy bass prominent speakers. Not my taste !

 

[JonFo]

Wilson = Wasted Investment Low Sonics Or None...........

They are all big boomy bass prominent speakers. Not my taste !

LOL! :haha1:


Agreed that every Wilson I've ever heard, whether in a home or at a showroom, the bass and mid-bass were way to prominent. Could have been the rooms, but the speakers seem to share that quality.

 

[JonFo]

As for whether ML's can rock, yes indeed they can. I regularly shake the house here.

But I also have spent a lot of time rebalancing the sound with active crossovers and aftermarket woofers.
If anything, the ML panels can outgun the rest of your system by a wide margin. The hardest thing to achieve is a balanced sound at all volume levels.

One of the tricks I'm learning is key is room treatments. An ML in an untreated room can be a disaster compared to a good dynamic speaker in terms of rock enjoyment, as rock music tends to compressed dynamic range and high SPL, the engagement of room modes and resonances excited by the big panels can be an issue vs a simple, smaller point source system.

In a well treated room, with the right tunings, I listen to concerts and to multichannel DVD-A’s like Porcupine Tree, and trust me, MartinLogans Rock :rocker: