matching Martin Logans with Finalsounds

[mop72]

I'm brand new to this forum and to Electrostats. After years of being a loyal Klipsch owner (90% home theater, owing to their transparency), I took the plunge and went electrostat. Boy, am I glad I did. I have a Finalsound 400i center and 150i's in the rear. As much I love these, I was thinking of getting Martin Logan Vistas (or the next model up) for the left and right mains due to their dynamic drivers for the lows. The speakers are in a small room in a condo so Final 400's and a good sub might be a poor match in such a small room (12 x 8), not to mention the neighbors. for those of you who have both systems, have you ever paired them up and if you have, are they a good match?

 

[Cherian]

I think the MLs as the front L and R and Final Sound in the rears will be a good fit. The MLs will do the bass work of the system. I have both Final and ML but I have not combined the two. Both ML and the Final’s are fast so both should play well together. My only issue willl be the aesthetics of your system. I am not sure if the Vista can be had with an aluminum finish.

 

[mop72]

Thanks for the reply, Cherian. I'm not too worried about the looks. The fact that I'm using a Monster MPA 3250 amp for the fronts with those cheesy blue light watt meters and a Denon 3802 for a pre-pro should speak volumes about my audio aesthetic tastes. I just want a fairly seemless match across the fronts. since you're a Final owner, you know how clear and transparent they are with good power since they have no xo. This also translates to audible, but not very exciting bass. I was also thinking of getting the 400 fronts and either a Grotto (2) or Depth sub.

 

[Cherian]

It will be best to go Final's all around a true fit. Again the MLs will also be a good match and give you more bass options.

Go with the Depth. It is a faster sub with power when you need it. I live in a condo too so I just turn the sub down after 10:00.

 

[IWalker]

I'm brand new to this forum and to Electrostats. After years of being a loyal Klipsch owner (90% home theater, owing to their transparency), I took the plunge and went electrostat. Boy, am I glad I did. I have a Finalsound 400i center and 150i's in the rear. As much I love these, I was thinking of getting Martin Logan Vistas (or the next model up) for the left and right mains due to their dynamic drivers for the lows. The speakers are in a small room in a condo so Final 400's and a good sub might be a poor match in such a small room (12 x 8), not to mention the neighbors. for those of you who have both systems, have you ever paired them up and if you have, are they a good match?

If you do go that route, I'd be interested in hearing your impressions...because I was simply amazed at what I felt was the improvement in the midbass going TO the finals. I'd demo them to make sure you're going to get what you're looking for. In my personal experience, you might look at the 600is...though I really think that a good CLEAN sub will be what you're looking for

What makes you think adding a sub will be a bad match? Get a decent (any of the servo ML subs are good choices) sub and cross over at 80-100Hz and I think you'll be very pleased. If you're wanting to get down lower than the 400s, but higher than the 20-25Hz...then you can have the sub roll off higher.

 

[IWalker]

It will be best to go Final's all around a true fit. Again the MLs will also be a good match and give you more bass options.

Go with the Depth. It is a faster sub with power when you need it. I live in a condo too so I just turn the sub down after 10:00.

Agreed. Having the sub gives you that option too...with no sub, you don't. So you add that flexibility.

Try out a grotto or depth...and cross at 80Hz if you listen at moderate to low volumes, and 100Hz if you listen louder. Dial in the level and the phase, and you should happy, I'd think.

 

[mop72]

I heard both subs today. Couldn't believe the depth of the Depth (really wasn't trying to be funny). Even in the demo room, it really shook the walls. I liked the clean sound of the Grotto. The Depth, though, is built so much more solid. my only fear is that even on low, the Depth might be too annoying for the people downstairs (I live on the top floor), so my thought was to get two Grottos. That Depth is one amazing sub. Would you still take the Depth over two Grottos? Also, if you don't mind me asking, what are your feelings on the Finals vs. the Martin Logans?

 

[Cherian]

(2) Grottos or (1) Depth, Hmmmm? I would have to go with (2) Grottos. A bit more symmetry and more placement options. (2) grottos will cost about $1,400.00 used this is very close in price to a used Decent. I would go with a Decent.

I prefer the hybrid sound of the MLs. I may not be being fair. I have the Finals set up in the bedroom and powered by a NAD receiver. This is not optimal. II don't think I'm the best person to comment on the sound between the two.

 

[mop72]

wrote my last reply before I saw you're post IWALKER. I agree with you about the midbass and highs of the final. The system is used mostly for home theater but I do love "clean" bass. I notice that when drums or cannons fire, the Finals are ok but not great. my old subwoofer gives somewhat of a smeared deep sound when reproducing those sounds. My old Klipsch towers gave a clean, immediate sound. That's what I was trying to reproduce and thought that the dynamic mid-bass driver on the M-L might reproduce

 

[IWalker]

wrote my last reply before I saw you're post IWALKER. I agree with you about the midbass and highs of the final. The system is used mostly for home theater but I do love "clean" bass. I notice that when drums or cannons fire, the Finals are ok but not great. my old subwoofer gives somewhat of a smeared deep sound when reproducing those sounds. My old Klipsch towers gave a clean, immediate sound. That's what I was trying to reproduce and thought that the dynamic mid-bass driver on the M-L might reproduce

In terms of output, 2 grottos should match 1 depth, and I think you can likely get a depth for cheaper than 2 grottos (plus, it'll be easier to adjust the 1 sub downward instead of having to adjust both)

But, Cherian is right...with the grottos you have more placement options, better room interaction...AND, if you put the subs near the panels (not ideal from a sound reinforcement standpoint...but that shouldn't be an issue if you're not trying to get the most out of the low end, (ie sub 25Hz or so)) then you can cross them over higher (100-150Hz) without getting the "directionality" issues that often come into play with higher sub crossover points.

The depth has the ability to shake walls...but if it's tuned correctly, it will provide deep CLEAN bass...if the bass was overpowering when you heard it in the demo, it was because it was turned up way too loud in order to get the wow factor. Tune it well and you won't get that effect. If you want more of that effect for a movie, turn it up...if you want less late at night, turn it down. Just remember where the "flat" setting is!

It's actually interesting...you have to get used to the way servo subs sound...then you'll never go back! Most subs sound incredibly boomy to me now. You'll think it's set too low, because there's so much less distortion that you're hearing.


So....I would say the ideal is probably 2 grottos...followed by either 1 depth or 1 grotto, depending on how loud you want to be able to go. Sound quality should be quite similar.

 

[IWalker]

wrote my last reply before I saw you're post IWALKER. I agree with you about the midbass and highs of the final. The system is used mostly for home theater but I do love "clean" bass. I notice that when drums or cannons fire, the Finals are ok but not great. my old subwoofer gives somewhat of a smeared deep sound when reproducing those sounds. My old Klipsch towers gave a clean, immediate sound. That's what I was trying to reproduce and thought that the dynamic mid-bass driver on the M-L might reproduce

Yeah...you're missing the BASS. The finals don't claim to have it...and the MLs, up to the summits really, don't have it either, for home theater. Even the summits can really use a good sub to add the depth that you need for a cannon shot. Clarities DEFINITELY wouldn't do it. I built my first sub for a friend who bought clairities....because it was so obviously needed.

Your finals + Servo sub, level and phase matched, should be exactly what you're looking for. If you're ever in the Charlotte area, you're welcome to come hear mine. I LOVE the setup for HT and music alike...and I think it's fairly rare to find a setup you can be truly happy with for both.

1 note...it's difficult to level match using just your ears. If that's all you can do, then fine...but for $50, you can get an SPL meter from radio shack, download a room EQ program, and do a frequency sweep of your room. A lot of times, you find out that your sub placement has caused major peaks in the response that make the response sound boomier than it should. Room treatments and active EQ (the SMS-1 (iirc)) from veoldyne is a great choice if this is a major issue. ) can fix this. This is a ROOM issue, not a sub issue. Basically, if you're hearing boomy bass from any of the 3 subs listed above (or any quality sub) it's likely the room, or a level or phase setting not the sub itself. Before you invest money into those options, if you measure and have issues...moving the sub(s) around can help/fix the issues as well.

Hope that helps!

BTW, a proper cannon blast SHOULD disturb the neightbors

 

[mop72]

Thanks for all your suggestions. you guys and this board are really great. I've been looking around for sub options for a while. Everything from a Dynaudio sub300 to Rel britannica's to velodyne spl's. As you know, though the Final Specs say the 400's roll off at 65 and the center rolls at 80, there's not a lot down there. I wanted a sub that could be crossed at around a 100 but still sound "clean" and not that directionality, but was fast enough to keep up with the 'stats while still having a little oomph down below.

 

[mop72]

Thanks for the invite, IWALKER. I may someday take you up on it. And I agree wholeheartedly about a proper cannon blast.

 

[IWalker]

I heard both subs today. Couldn't believe the depth of the Depth (really wasn't trying to be funny). Even in the demo room, it really shook the walls. I liked the clean sound of the Grotto. The Depth, though, is built so much more solid. my only fear is that even on low, the Depth might be too annoying for the people downstairs (I live on the top floor), so my thought was to get two Grottos. That Depth is one amazing sub. Would you still take the Depth over two Grottos? Also, if you don't mind me asking, what are your feelings on the Finals vs. the Martin Logans?

I did a mini review of the finals when I first got them in the off-topic a/v forum...but I'll paraphrase.

While the MLs were wonderful with certain types of music...jazz, vocals, etc...I had 2 issues with them...midbass weight and a certain "harshness" I was hearing. Finals have fixed both of these things in spades for me...while not losing any of the "electrostat" sound that I loved. In addition I felt it added a certain weight to things like the strum of a guitar...that just made them feel more real. I replaced Quest Zs with 400is (plus midbass arrays and a servo sub I made myself) and couldn't be happier. I have no upgraditis...except to finish my 2nd sub (the box is built, just need to buy the kit) and maybe close the back of my arrays... but the first requires just $450 in free funds (which are currently being put towards my next mountain bike purchase) and the 2nd just the time and effort. Neither of them feel remotely necessary though...just feel like the steps to get to that "finished" stage.

Cherian also has both, but has MLs as his main system, and 400is in his bedroom system...so his opinion might vary significantly from mine.

jtwrace on this forum is replacing his summits with 1000is + 1 or 2 of the servo subs I have.

 

[IWalker]

Thanks for all your suggestions. you guys and this board are really great. I've been looking around for sub options for a while. Everything from a Dynaudio sub300 to Rel britannica's to velodyne spl's. As you know, though the Final Specs say the 400's roll off at 65 and the center rolls at 80, there's not a lot down there. I wanted a sub that could be crossed at around a 100 but still sound "clean" and not that directionality, but was fast enough to keep up with the 'stats while still having a little oomph down below.

All good subs...but I'd go for a good servo sub before anything else. Velodyne's DD series are good...so are the MLs.

The finals say they roll of at 65Hz...but that does not mean that they can play very loud at 65Hz, or very cleanly...it just means that the frequency response is still within +/- 3db at that point. realistically...if you listen at any sort of above average volumes...I'd cross no lower than 100Hz.

The directionality has to do with higher frequencies being emitted by the sub. Anything under 80Hz is generally considered to be "omnidirectional"...but there's not a ton of difference up to 100Hz...and if you put the subs near the panels...then directionality isn't an issue anyway (it's an issue really only when your sub is placed away from the panels) ... so that's an argument for 2 grottos over 1 sub.

Where you generally get directionality in lower quality subs, is that they put out a lot of distortion, which are shown as output at higher frequencies. So, high distortion at low frequencies leads to high output from the sub at higher frequencies...leading to directionality. Get a low distortion (servo technology significantly lowers distortion...ML's balanced force technology further reduces it) sub and you won't have that issue.


So...2 grottos, placed near panels....cross as high as 150Hz.
1 sub ... place it in a corner, and don't cross any higher than 100Hz...80Hz is better. (this will limit your overall output ability before running out of steam on the panels.)

This is a BIG recommendation for the 2 grotto setup imo. Check audiogon...see if you can get some lightly used ones (ideally not demo pairs, since those are generally abused) ... for a good price. Should be able to with the grotto i coming out (I think it is at least!)

 

[mop72]

My friend has the 600i's with a proceed amp and jazz and latin music sound absolutely fantastic. Extremely holographic. my 400i center and 150's (as well as a borrowed pair of 400's) sound great with the Monster amp (it's really a Richard Marsh Amp). the only problem is that if you've ever heard a Marsh amp, they're extremely "fast" and revealing. No coloring of the sound (not in a bad way). Since there's no warmth, they can appear to be too reveling on an electrostat. Being a former Klipschhead, for me and for movies, not such a bad thing. For music lovers, maybe a bit too revealing.

 

[mop72]

IWALKER. I think I'll take you're suggestion and go with either the 2 Grottos or 1 Depth. the more I think about it, the more right you are. A fast servo (or 2) sub is the (only) way to go.

 

[IWalker]

IWALKER. I think I'll take you're suggestion and go with either the 2 Grottos or 1 Depth. the more I think about it, the more right you are. A fast servo (or 2) sub is the (only) way to go.

Let me know how it works out...if your experiences are anything like mine, you should be very happy!

 

[mop72]

Again, thanks IWALKER and CHERIAN for all your help.

 

[Joey_V]

Yeah...you're missing the BASS. The finals don't claim to have it...and the MLs, up to the summits really, don't have it either, for home theater. Even the summits can really use a good sub to add the depth that you need for a cannon shot.

To be fair, I don't think there are more than several speakers out there with the tipped-up bass that is necessary for HT sound effects. Most speakers need subwoofer augmentation to get bass levels up for HT purposes.