Logan System Questions

[osha7677]

Hello all. Just registered because after hearing all sorts of opinions from all sorts of people I figured it best to get it from the horses mouth so to speak... ML owners.

I have a large bright room that I currently refer to as "the echo chamber". It is a great room with hardwood floors and a painted drywall ceiling (34' W, 23' D, 14'-18' H). There is a carpeted loft that extends this depth another 15'. The room currently has a very long sofa (23') and a large area rug that absorbs some of the reverb. The listening area (sofa) will be 18' from the front speakers. I plan on putting up some acoustic panels and switching the blinds on the windows out with acoustic blinds.

I went into a Best Buy and was recommended the ML Electromotion ESLs because the supposedly "take the room out of the equation" and reduce rouge sound from going into the rest of the house. Went with a Matinee center ($700 discontinued) and motion 4s for the sides of this 5.1 home theater setup. Still debating whether to go with the Dynamo 500 or 1000 for the sub.

Ok, now for the questions....

1. Do you guys think this is overkill considering I will be using this system 90% for home theater? I have heard if using for HT primarily you won't really appreciate the extra detail of these speakers. I could save alot of money by going with standard cone speakers, both in cost of speakers and not needing extra amps.

2. Considering my room dimensions, do you think my "sweet spot" is going to be too small? (18' from the ESLs... i can spread the L/R speakers up to 12' if needed)

3. Do you think I would be alright running these off a Pioneer SC-72 receiver until I can pony up more cash for dedicated amps?

4. Do you think the Matinee will eventually need a separate amp, or will the SC-72 be able to drive the center and sides smoothly considering the ESLs and sub will have their own amps.

5. Do you think the Matinee will clash tonally with the Electromotions? I guess the Matinee uses the older panel (not the Xstat).

6. If I was to get seperate amps, what model would you guys recommend?

7. And last but not least... Dynamo 500 or go for the 1000?

Thanks in advance!!! Sorry so many questions. I have done extensive research on these and still don't have a good answer for most of them.

 

[topofroc]

Osha7677,

It all boils down to what you want out of your system. ML electrostatics do work well for home theater, providing a lot of fine detail and realism you can't get in cone speakers. They demand more to perform at their peak (external amps are a must in my opinion). However, if fine sonic detail is more of a nice-to-have for you, then you might want to check out the ML Motion 40s or 60s. They have the folded tweeter design that gives you some of immediacy of electrostatics, but can be run off a receiver.

To give you an idea of where I'm coming from, my 5.2 system has ML Vantages as mains with an ML Stage as the center channel and generic in-ceiling speakers for the rears. As for electronics, I'm using an NAD T747 as a preamp, with Mcintosh amps (MC2200 and MC2120) driving the front speakers.

With a room as big as yours, Dynamo 500 or even a Dynamo 1000 won't cut it. They just won't displace enough air to pressurize your large room. If you're really looking for the big explosions and dynamics that are possible in a home theater, I would look to some of the online sub manufacturers (such as Rythmik or SVS Sound). ML subs are great (I own two Dynamo 1000's), but you can get equivalent or better performance for less (IF you can live with a bigger sub box). Look for a sub with servo control, as it will provide more deep, controlled bass and less flabby BOOM. If you can swing it, I would recommend two subs to even out the bass distribution in your room. Definitely 12in drivers, 15in drivers if you like your bass.

I would hold on to the Matinee center channel whichever way you go. Electrostatic center channels are great for voice clarity. Plus, you got it at a really good price. You will (in my opinion) need an external amp for the Matinee to really sing.

Hope this helps.

 

[osha7677]

Thanks a lot for taking the time to reply. Good info. I was considering the motion line but they are almost as much as the Electromotions. Now of course as you mentioned I won't need separate amps which will save some cash.

Truth be told, it was the detail and crystal clear sound of the Electromotions that made me fall in love with them. I just didn't realize at the time all the extra cash involved with getting separate amps.

Surprised to hear about the your opinion on the sub. I was thinking the 1000 might be too much!

 

[InterMechanico]

In my opinion, you don't necessarily need separates to run ESLs, certainly not the electromotion ESL. They are built to be user/amplifier friendly and are OK to be powered by a wide range of AVRS. Having said that, if you want to get the most out of them, especially when listening to 2ch music (which you rarely do), you may want to consider a separate power amplifier later on.

I have Vistas, and for poops and giggles connected them to 2 Avrs to see how they'd perform. The first came with the sound system in my apartment when I purchased it (small denon 5.1, 80 wpc (1/8th channel driven hehe)). Absolutely no luck; barely made noise before going into protection mode. The second avr is my current unit, which powers my center channel and surround channel in 5.1. It's a Yamaha Aventage 1020, and will power the Vistas to high sound levels. I don't particularly enjoy the sound, but it will do it just fine.

I suppose it is relevant which AVR you're using though. Tell us?

 

[InterMechanico]

In all reality, when watching a movie in surround sound, your center channel will be the big power draw anyhow.

 

[osha7677]

Thanks InterMechanico. I was considering the Pioneer Elite SC-72. The D3 amps are suppose to be pretty stable. I had the guy at Best Buy run the Electromotions, a C2 center, and two side speakers off a SC-75 and turn up the volume. They sounded fine until it got to uncomfortable volume and then there was some distortion, but I really don't think I would ever want them that loud for a movie. We also only listened for 2 or 3 minutes, so who knows if the receiver would have melted down after another hour or so.

But like you mentioned, for HT the center is going to be the biggest power draw, and I don't have a C2... I have the Matinee.

I'm really stumped as far as the receiver and amps. If I really should be using amps then why spend more money on a more powerful receiver if at the end of the day they are just going to be running the motion 4s on the sides?

That being said... what amps would you recommend that can handle <2 ohms? Someone had recommended this one.

 

[osha7677]

I guess I should add that part of my dilemma is that 1.) I don't know much about amps, 2.) it seems very hard to do apples to apples comparisons of amps online. Many of them say "4 ohm stable", but does that mean <2 ohm stable? I saw a 40W per channel tube amp for $700... does 40W of tube power = 400W of standard amp power?

The Electromotions are rated up to 300W. The Matinee is rated up to 150 or 200 I believe. How do I know how much power to use without going overboard? Is it worth buying a more expensive amp with less rated power, or less expensive amp with more rated power?

Very confused. Any suggestions taking my proposed surround system and my pocketbook into account is very welcome. Not looking to set any decibel records, just want solid, clear, sound that I can turn up a bit if I want without any worries.

 

[InterMechanico]

To address some of your issues;

The Sc-72 will be fine for what you want to do.

1 watt of tube power is equal to 1 watt of solid state power; e.g. a watt is a watt, 746 watts in 1 horsepower...

The power rating of a loud speaker is a minimum/maximum rating; will work within that range. Having said that, closer to the higher end of the rating is better if you listen at very high levels.
To put it into perspective, if you have a 100 watt amplifier, and want to double the output volume of your loudspeaker while maintaining low distortion, you will require 1000 watts of power. To double again will require 10000 watts. In other words, 100 watts per channel is a great place to start.

If you're uncertain about your avr choice, just make sure you can return it if it doesn't suit you. Later on, you can decide to change things up and add a power amp, IF you think it's necessary. Most good sounding systems are built slowly around a pair/setup of loudspeakers, not all at once.

I almost forgot about the impedance thing...

A loudspeaker will have a nominal impedance rating. However, as the frequency of the sound changes, so will the impedance. The 2 ohms you're referring to is at 20000 hz, or the very upper reaches of the frequency band your loudspeaker will produce, which isn't often. Once again, back to the listening level thing, as impedance drops, current (amount of actual electromotive force (power) demand increases. If you are already demanding as much current as your amplifier can produce (set at max volume) when the impedance drops, your amplifier will clip (cut off sounds) which is bad (for our purposes "bad" is enough). You won't listen at ear bleed levels, so you'll be OK with your selection of AVR.

 

[InterMechanico]

Another member recommended this brand of amplifier as great value http://odysseyaudio.com/products-stratos-ht3.html

 

[SubSolar]

Get the ESL's and a solid receiver and don't look back. I bought my Theos right after hearing the Electromotion ESL's at a Best Buy demo. I bought it because of the major difference I heard in home theater/movies over the B&W CM9's I had just bought a few months prior. I was happy with the B&W's for music and wouldn't have upgraded to MartinLogan if it weren't for the added details I heard in movies. Everything was just so crisp and clear. I've been running the Theos and Stage in front with the B&W's as surrounds with only my Denon 3313 (125 watt per channel rated) and have had zero issues. They would probably run fine with a $500 receiver as long as you don't listen at ear bleeding levels.

 

[osha7677]

Thanks so much for your input everyone.

 

[Duke]

In a room that size you may have a problem with pressurizing the lower frequencies and getting enough slam.

It seems you would be listening near field. I listen to my panels from 9 to 10 feet away and they are another 8 feet to the front wall, so I am about 18 feet to the front wall. I never have a problem with nodes and the sound is very clean. You usually need a lot of distance from the front wall with a panel. I had to buy a lot of woofer to pressurize the room because it is an open great room. I pressurize most of the house to get the lower frequencies to be flat like the near field panels.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Another member recommended this brand of amplifier as great value http://odysseyaudio.com/products-stratos-ht3.html

Worthwile investigating if it "fits".