Help with room placement - ML + SUB

[BlueGrey]

Hello,
I'm new to ML, just got my pair of EelctroMotions and I'm loving them.
Rest of the system is:

Jriver (on RPI) -> Schiit Yggy DAC -> ATI6002 amp -> ML electromotion (also using a REL S/3 sub - connected directly to the DAC.

I'd love to get some advice on how to organize my listening room. I have great sound but I'm lacking the 3D sound stage...

It is a large room (in UK standards) 32sqm - with a high ceiling (3m).
It's a dedicated listening room, though my wife still mistakes it for a living room so I can't go all crazy with room treatments and speaker placement - though I can do around 1.5m from the side and back walls easily.

My main problem, I think, is that the front wall (behind the speakers) is angled, so one speaker is closer to the back wall than the other - if I place them parallel to the sofa and the bottom wall.

What I've tried to do now is to angle the sofa to be parallel to the angled front wall and place the speakers in the same distance, again try to make them parallel to that wall. It sounds OK but I'm not getting that holographic 3D sound-stage - it's wide but not especially deep.

The room is quite resonant. Lots of empty surfaces and a wooden floor - the speakers and sub are sitting on Townshend seismic isolation platform that work very well.

I use REW and a calibrated microphone to integrate the sub - since I don't have a seperate sub channel I 'play it along' with the speakers and apply EQ (via Jriver) to both to get the response back to earth - works a treat.

Please share your thoughts.

Thank you!

 

[roberto]

Hola. I do not know if you had watched these videos...they are a good help for setting right the martin logans...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHWP6Bq8rHw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzCIMufCQLk

 

[BlueGrey]

Thanks you these are very good and informative videos.

My question is specifically how shoudl I deal with the angled 'front wall' - the one directly behind the speakers?
All instructions assume and level wall...

Thank you!

 

[roberto]

Hola. I do not think that you might have a big problem with the angle of the front wall. ML uses the front wall reflection for ambiance and stage. There are going to be a little delays of the front wall signal reflected to your ears, but I think its not important as to have them firing at the same distance from your golden seat position. You are going to get first the panels firing to you and the delay from the front wall will provide the size of the stage. If you bring them forward to you, you will increase the time delay from the front wall, and taking them closer to the front wall, you will have less time delay and will increase booming bass. Its important to have firing to your ears 1/3 of the inside of each panel. That's the flash light technique. I have mines, located on the side of a stairs to second floor. So, one is fully reflected and the other is not having that reflection. The sound is good, steady stage and good sense of 3D.
You will never find the exact and right position on any ML speakers. I do believe that each position that you like its OK. Where you seat at the stage, changes dramatically moving them only 1/2 feet. Use masking tape to mark some positions that you did like and number them. Write in a piece of paper your findings for each position, then once you had tried several, choose the one that you liked most. Its your system and your ears! Do not worry about others. Happy listening!

 

[Tosh]

Roberto, you are referring to the front wall as the 'back' wall. The back wall is behind the listening position...

OP: You are on the right track by straightening out and aligning the speakers and listening position wrt the front wall. Then you can separately sort the two side reflections as needed to continue the balancing act so that both sets of reflections (L and R) have the same length paths (as far as possible) to the LP.

Attach a photo for more inspiration?
Keep us posted!

 

[roberto]

Thanks Tosh! My understanding was that the wall behind me, was the back wall...understood perfectly! Thanks again for the correction! I am going to edit my post!

 

[sb6]

I would be more concerned about the right wall with bookshelves, depending on their height and distance from the side wall than the front wall that's angled. Where is the right wall, cannot tell in the picture.

 

[beek]

Flop the room

Put the couch in front of the bookshelf, then you have asysimetrical side walls like a concert hall or movie theaterw

 

[BlueGrey]

thanks guys, here are some pictures:







There it is, I apologize for the bad photography. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thank you!

 

[TomDac]

I have always referred to the wall behind the speakers as "back wall".

 

[Tosh]

Those attachments aren't working for me...

No harm done, Tom.

 

[BlueGrey]

Fixed now - thank you!

 

[sleepysurf]

Is it feasible to rotate your setup 90 degrees, so the speakers are in front of the bookshelves, and the couch in front of the radiator? That might improve the imaging and soundstage, as bookshelves can act as pseudo-diffusors. That's what I have for my system (pics link in my signature).

 

[Tosh]

BlueGrey: Have you ensured L/R symmetry with a tape measure? Position, rake, and toe need to have L/R symmetry as perfect as you can physically achieve, to the millimeter.
Indeed that is a quite reflective (live) room, but you can mitigate that somewhat by moving the speakers and listening position as far toward the center of the room as practical (even if just temporarily as a test). Also as a test, you can place folded towels or blankets at the two first floor reflection points (and also at the side walls) to hear how much effect that has on the stereo image. Leave the sub off for those imaging tests.

 

[BlueGrey]

Hello guys,
thanks for the great advice!

It's not totally feasible to rotate the system as suggested (my SO has some issues with this idea..).
For the moment I'd like to optimize the placement as it is.

I must say the speakers sound stunning as they are, I'm going through music I know by heart and am surprised by new details and micro-dynamics - it is fabulous.

I think the speakers are positioned correctly but I'd love to hear your suggestions about the specific distances I shoudl try? As far as space from 'the wall behind the speakers' - They are 1.52m (5ft) in that's the recommended distance and about as much as I'm allowed... ;-) May be able to tweak it a bit more.

the distance form the sidewalls is an open question... For a start I'm not sure were to measure the 'side wall' from?
As you'll see in this crude sketch (and pictures, on the right side I have a 'recess in the wall, which is where I believe the reflection come from, but I also have the lower part of the library ( a wall in practical terms) that's close to the speaker..

On the left side I have the heating radiator (wooden cover box) that's also reflecting, I believe...
I did get a laser measuring device that's very accurate and I have a proper level to make sure the isolation bars are properly set - it doesn't help the wooden floor is old and not straight!

Lastly I can also play with the distance of the sofa to the back wall.




Thanks for all the help!
Please share your thoughts,

Thank you!

 

[sleepysurf]

If you must keep the speakers on the diagonal wall, you might not even need to angle the sofa. If the speakers are both >5 ft from the front wall, you could position the sofa parallel to the REAR wall (as in your first diagram), to better maintain room symmetry, and then position the speakers equidistant from the center of the sofa (right speaker would be slightly farther from front wall). A 1 ft or so difference (if both speakers > 5 ft from front wall) will have negligible (if any) effect on imaging and soundstage. With regard to side walls, ML electrostatics have a dipole (figure 8) radiation pattern, so the side wall reflections are less critical. You can play a bit with toe-in using the classic ML flashlight trick.

One additional thing you might consider is getting a larger rug that's slighly wider than your speaker placement, to minimize floor reflections.

 

[sb6]

Given the distance from the front wall to your listening seat, I would put diffusion behind the speakers. You could also do absorption.

 

[BlueGrey]

Given the distance from the front wall to your listening seat, I would put diffusion behind the speakers. You could also do absorption.

Thanks,
Does this mean the distance (1.5m) is too close?

Also what effect does the rake angle of the speakers have? I noticed the bigger speakers in the range are effectively vertical? Would it improve the sound if I set mine up like that?

thank you!

 

[BlueGrey]

Hello People,
I've now followed the manuals 'extra tweak' method of placing the speakers in the middle of the room (almost - it's certainly 'mid-field placement' - and it sounds good but not a huge difference compared to the previous placement.

I saw an ML video where they say they can be close to walls - not sure what's best?

Also what effect does the rake angle has? I notice the bigger ML speakers are effectively vertical?

Thanks!