Hello from England, looking for some info on SL3's

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Joined
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Hello everyone, looking for some help on my much loved SL3's that are not as happy as they once were.

The left hand channel lost output, and I have ventured to opening the back cover and looking at the PCB. I could see that the high voltage multipler had failed by the toasty components.

I isolated the speaker and removed the PCB in order to repair/replace the diodes/capacitors. I did not have any schematic but was able to identify the parts by looking at the early stages of the multiplier. I also replaced a few other capacitors with same make / model, where were not in the filter crossover but some other part of the circuit that looked like a signal detector switch on circuit. Anyway if it is possible to obtain a schematic that would help.

I was not able to verify the voltage as I did not have a suitable HV probe form my multimeter, but did remount the PCB and wire back up.

Powering up the circuit and playing some music showed the sound had returned, but there is a noticeable level.

Trying to be a little more objective, I ran a signal generator into my amplifier and then recorded the output on a portable sound recorded and external microphone. The speakers were measured individually in a smaller room with only the speaker under test in the room and the recording.

This was not a detailed anechoic level measurement, rather a more objective way of checking what my ears were telling me ! The amplifier was feed from a signal generator 30Hz-20kHz swept signal, 100Hz step at 0.5V RMS, then the amplifier output level was adjusted whilst observing the recorders input level. The measured power output was 25V RMS / 4 ohm. A Picoscope 5444D with MSO generated the signal, plus measured the output of the amplifier. Recordings were made on a Zoom 4Hn Pro with external Rode NT-2 microphone. The recording was 24bit/96kHz in BWF-compliant WAV format.

The recorded WAV file was then input in Audacity and the frequency response curves below were generated. As you can see, there is sizeable 20dB difference between the working and the low output speaker.

For the low output speaker you can also see the curve starts at same point but drops around 300Hz, I shoud have used a lowere frequncy step in mysetup, but you can see the crossover and that the bass was the same. So this shows the HF panel. However, I do not necessailye think the panel is the issue, but more likely the PCB could still have issues. I will order a HV probe kit so I can measure the HT.

If anyone has an SL3 schematic I would be most grateful.

Many thanks, Mark from very wet England !
 

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Hi
Welcome aboard!

I am not as deeply technical as you, but really appreciate the approach you are using in trouble-shooting your SL3's!

As a new user (welcome, BTW!), you migh tnot have access to all the search stuff on here... here are some links you will find handy:

Power & XO board schematics:
https://cdn.imagearchive.com/martin...gan-SL3-Power-Supply-Board-Schematic-120V.pdf

https://cdn.imagearchive.com/martinloganowners/data/attach/10/10872-sl3-crossover-schematic.PDF

NOTE: Apparently there have been several revisions of the SL3 circuitry, so I am not sure exactly HOW helpful these will be.

Also, there are several threads on here about going with an Active XO & Bi-amping (where the woofers are driven by cheap (but decent) Class D devices... the same paradigm used by the new top-of-the-line ML Masterpiece series speakers). This is something I am planning to do with my SL3s when time & $$$ permit. Below is a link to a well-thought out conversion of some Aerius speakers by @Brandon Hartwick.
https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/how-to-active-bass-section.19237/

Lastly, once you figure out WHICH email address to use (sorry, I'm still not sure), Martin Logan support is generally very forthcoming with older speaker schematics and possible workarounds/advice.

Please keep us posted on your progress.. I think many of us could benefit from your methodical approach to trouble-shooting and repair work!

Best of luck

Russ
 
Welcome to the forum
 
Many thanks Russ,

So I have ordered a 40kV probe for my multimeter. As I have a Fkuke DVM, I ordered the Fluke probe. This should be with me in a week or so. eBay seller in the USA, so international shipping, taxes and duty to pay for when it arrives, but still less than 1/2 the price of new one from the UK electronics disti !

Many thanks for the schematic which I can understand, so I can see the music sensing circuit switches on the HT.

Once I have the HT probe I’ll see if I am getting around 3kV on the panel as the first step.

I have made some fairly profound changes to my system in the last month or so.

My classic Krell KRC-3 and KSA-100 have been retired. Well moved to another room.

In comes a Linn DSM configured with 4 x PA channels (basically two stereo PA channels), to allow driving the speakers directly without cross over. I have one spare slot available for another PA channel that can be defined as Sub and centre. But Stereo is more than sufficient for now.

The Linn DSM does the active XO and just needs the parameters input. So I will begin with a 30-300Hz on the bass 10” moving coil, then 300Hz-22kHz for the panel.

Thanks Mark
 
Hi gain

I don't know anything about the DSMs (was a fanboy of Sondeks & Isobariks back in the day!), but not sure the amp out stage would be a good fit for the SL3 panels. This is based on nothin more than the wieght of the unit, and my assumption that it's using some form of Class D "Magic". I've heard (read, really, of ONE class D device (Pass, I think) that seems well suited to driving ESL panels). Does the DSM output line-level signals AFTER the XO? Then I'd use a beefy ol' Class A-B for the panel-driving, and use the Class D for the woofers.
 
Hi There !

I also have a classic Linn system, LP12 Sondek / Ittok arm (various cartridges, but a Koetsu Black K currently set up). The LP12 has been constantly upgraded over the last 25 years. Not many thing you can say of that.

Amps and speakers were the classic Naim and Linn Isobariks now in the master bedroom (aka listening room No2)

The Krell was good as well and I think superior to the Naim setup. Certainly had no problems driving the speakers.

I listed to the DSM at show, then arranged a dealer listening a year or so ago. It was very good. So I took the plunge and incomes the DSM. It’s a radically different take from the all analog class A. It’s now digits and class D. Mine has the Katalyst converters so a notch up from the standard build. Though the Organik converters came out and are now king of the hill.

Whilst the SL3 are under repair I have a pair of Kudos 505 speakers being driven bi-amped using the DSM and the active XO. All setup up on my computer !

Back in SL3 land, once I get to the bottom of the problem, I think I am tempted to make them active / bi-amped and bypass the passive cross overs. I will also look at the 10” bass drive replacement as this seems a good move.
 

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Hi gain

I don't know anything about the DSMs (was a fanboy of Sondeks & Isobariks back in the day!), but not sure the amp out stage would be a good fit for the SL3 panels. This is based on nothin more than the wieght of the unit, and my assumption that it's using some form of Class D "Magic". I've heard (read, really, of ONE class D device (Pass, I think) that seems well suited to driving ESL panels). Does the DSM output line-level signals AFTER the XO? Then I'd use a beefy ol' Class A-B for the panel-driving, and use the Class D for the woofers.
If 11A or higher that's already the case. Well, you still need to feed them but it must draw very little effect, so would there be need to use a seperate amp.?
 
If 11A or higher that's already the case. Well, you still need to feed them but it must draw very little effect, so would there be need to use a seperate amp.?
Hiya. I think we're saying the same thing... int he context of the OP's SL3's, he could accomplish a similar result to what is achieved with the new 11A+ series by bi-amping, and going Class D for the LF drivers.

Remember, when the SL3's (and everything until the Masterpiece series), it was difficult/impossible to achieve a active filtering/bi-amping on a non-celestial budget! As several members have stated in multiple threads, talking "lowly" Aerius's, SL3's, Requests, etc., and applying what are now commonly available digital filters and Class D amplification, it is LIKELY, not just possible, for our old speakers to perform way beyond their initial design envelopes.

Frankly, I can't wait to get started on mine, but it will take a while. In the meantime, I'm eying a used Crown XLi 1502 (with built-in DSP for High, Low- & Band-pass filtering) to replace an old Bryston I have powering my rears, jut so that I will have the amp-side of things sorted when it comes time to Bi-amp my SL3s!

Side note: My faith in Bryston took a bit of a hit last week... the global supply-chain situation has them pulling back on their stellar service levels. Used to be you could send an ST series in for re-cap/refurbish for <$1,000. Well, now they don't offer that at all, and have a "fixed price" approach to solving individual issues. In my case, startup lights stay on error status for a while, could be one of several things (they gave me some useful details on how to narrow it down), but is likely a "fixed price of $800" to fix. I asked if a general re-capping and refurb could take place at the same time, and basically the answer is "no".
I've been hanging on to my Bryston 4B NRB (still going strong) and 4B-ST (sucking wind a little) BECAUSE of the amazing service provided by Bryston... hopefully some of the supply chain challenges smooth off over the next couple of years
 
Hello all, I did reach out to ML and Brian Bailey suggested a few things I will try.

Here is Brian’s suggestions

Generally, you have one of 3 things happening:

1) Bad internal HV power supply not putting out the correct voltage
2) Loose connection of the stat wires on the panel
3) Bad panel

You could figure out the issue with the PSU and still have a panel issue.

The way to test this is to physically swap the stats between the two speakers. I'm attaching instructions for this.

As you do this pay attention to the solder joints on the panel wires. If one or more of the wires are disconnected, STOP and send me pictures.

The idea is to see if the problem follows the panel or remains in the same cabinet.

Let me know what you find out or have questions.


thank you,



Brian Bailey
National Accounts Service Manager
MartinLogan LTD
[email protected]
 
Sometimes when the panels slide down the frame with time, gravity, the stat panel wires can become damaged/severed. ML gave me some of their " stat stop" brackets to put on mine to stop that from happening in the future. My Prodigy panels suffered from that, but I stopped it before the wires got damaged.
 
Mark what is the age of those speakers, the serial # decoder will show when the speakers were built. Th panels have a life expectancy of 20-25 years. My Odysseys that I purchased used had one panel that was lower volume and got more noticeable as the volume was increased. Installed new panels on them and problem solved. My panels were approaching 23 years old when I replaced them.
 
Used to be you could send an ST series in for re-cap/refurbish for <$1,000.
I'm skeptical of a "general re-cap/refurbish", except in the case of vintage hollow state equipment. If you're comfortable with it, get yourself an ESR meter and check all the electrolytics. In most cases this can be done in-circuit. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Of course, you can easily convince yourself, after spending $1k, that the sound is vastly improved, but you can't really do a comparison over that amount of time. Also, you have to live without the amp for a period.

As for the start-up error, it could definitely be a sign of an impending problem that would force you to live without the amp for a period anyway, and it could definitely be capacitor related. Just replace the one(s) going bad, or whatever Bryston's troubleshooting procedure tells you. There must be a local tech who could do that for you if you're uncomfortable or unwilling to. I try to avoid shipping a big hunk of metal out for service whenever possible.

Electrolytic capacitors do dry up occasionally, especially when subjected to severe heat environments. Replacing every single one is bad economy, IMO. Everything else more or less either works or doesn't work. When you're talking about a 75 year old unit that's been cooked by tubes, different story.
 
I always wonder with the comparison after a while mentioned. If you wount be able to say there is a difference then whats is the value by upgrading? But i doubt you wouldn't be able to hear a difference.
 
Mark what is the age of those speakers, the serial # decoder will show when the speakers were built. Th panels have a life expectancy of 20-25 years. My Odysseys that I purchased used had one panel that was lower volume and got more noticeable as the volume was increased. Installed new panels on them and problem solved. My panels were approaching 23 years old when I replaced them.
My Prodigy panels were only good for 20 years tops, probably less. I bought them used around 2017 I think. They were made in 2000. By the time I bought them they probably should have been replaced then. Volume on them was down about 15 db.
 
Hello I think I purchased the speakers around 1998, the serial numbers can be seen on the frequency plots

But are SEJE464 and 465

Hopefully the panels will be OK once I get to testing the HT PSU as this is where I fancy the issue is still.

Thanks for the great feedback
 
...
As for the start-up error, it could definitely be a sign of an impending problem that would force you to live without the amp for a period anyway, and it could definitely be capacitor related. Just replace the one(s) going bad, or whatever Bryston's troubleshooting procedure tells you. There must be a local tech who could do that for you if you're uncomfortable or unwilling to. I try to avoid shipping a big hunk of metal out for service whenever possible....
Thanks for the input. Here's what I got from Bryston (Axiom/Bryston now?) support"
"To ensure no damage to the speakers, if you have a multimeter set it to DC mV and measure across the binding posts of each channel with no load connected and see if it spikes or jumps to anything higher than 50mV. If it does then you may want to stop using it for the time being as this could cause damage to your speakers."
I have not pursued it any further yet, or asked if they have published procedures for more in-depth testing.
I'm not averse to hauling the ol' Sweltering Iron (S) out and changing out components, though my eyesight is a whole lot worse than when I last did this kind of work... on the plus side, I got one of those magnification work lamps bolted to my tech area these days so I can see what the heck I am doing!
I just replaced my old Fluke 77 (all the plastic had eroded to mush after being left in a plastic tote untouched for 15 years (!), and will get behind my equipment rack this weekend to perform the Bryston checks. I might reach out to you @Leporello once I have a path forward for some hints/tips on not getting killed by angry caps!
 
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Hello I think I purchased the speakers around 1998, the serial numbers can be seen on the frequency plots

But are SEJE464 and 465

Hopefully the panels will be OK once I get to testing the HT PSU as this is where I fancy the issue is still.

Thanks for the great feedback
Hi Mark
So a little research shows that yes indeed, those speakers were built in May of 1998, making them almost 26 years old. And I appreciate that you are testing all the electronics to see if they are in spec which is a great idea. But be prepared and not surprised if you find out the panel is the culprit. 26 years is at the top end of the life expectancy of these panels. But if this is the case the way I looked at my Odysseys which I just purchased 2 years ago it was an expected consideration in buying the speakers. I reasoned that I spent just under $2000 USD on the speakers and ordered new panels for another $2000 USD. Then I bypassed the passive woofer crossover and went to an active woofer crossover which I already had a behringer DCX-2496 with 3 open channels that I could use for the woofers on the Odysseys, I then bought 2 amps for the woofers a behringer KM-750 and a Crown XLi 800 both 400 watts into 4ohms. So for about $4800USD I have a pair of speakers that I am totally and completely happy with the performance of for under $5000. I don’t think there are more speakers that could come close to that performance that you could count on one hand. So I guess what I’m trying to say is, if it is your panels it’s not the end of the world at all, you can make those speakers sing again for a reasonable price, compared to what’s out there at todays prices.
Also welcome to the forum here it’s great to have people like you with the electronics knowledge here, I for one greatly appreciate it.
Just remember like your panels we all get old😂
 
Sometimes when the panels slide down the frame with time, gravity, the stat panel wires can become damaged/severed. ML gave me some of their " stat stop" brackets to put on mine to stop that from happening in the future. My Prodigy panels suffered from that, but I stopped it before the wires got damaged.
Yes thats absolutely true. My original SL3's (these had solid metal hexagonal speaker cable connectors) and did slide down the frame severing the soldered connecting wiring. As you say, Robert, this can be prevented with brackets (ML will email full instructions). With my newer SL3 pair (bought just prior to the introduction of the Prodigy's), the insertion of the panel was from the opposite end therefore obviating the need for stop brackets (these SL3's had modern plastic speaker cable connectors).
 
Yes thats absolutely true. My original SL3's (these had solid metal hexagonal speaker cable connectors) and did slide down the frame severing the soldered connecting wiring. As you say, Robert, this can be prevented with brackets (ML will email full instructions). With my newer SL3 pair (bought just prior to the introduction of the Prodigy's), the insertion of the panel was from the opposite end therefore obviating the need for stop brackets (these SL3's had modern plastic speaker cable connectors).
Oh, Martin Logan changed the design so that gravity could no longer damage the wire connection? Strange, because on the Prodigy the panels could still slide down. The brackets ML sent me do work now though.
 

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