From Theos to Montis, goodbye Magnepans.

[Zardos]

I was listening to my 2 channel system with the Magnepans the other night when I noticed these horizontal lines on them. They are newer MG .7's, The ribbon is de-laminating from the mylar. It's pretty common for them even with this new ribbon instead of wire. No more Magnepans for me until they can find better adhesives or processes where this does not happen.
Anyway I was kind of bummed but the place I got them from offers a warranty on them and they agreed to take them back. They have a ton of stuff but the Montis really caught my eye. I did the swap and yesterday I went down and picked them up. Really excellent condition, with the exception of a few small cosmetic blemishes they are like new otherwise and apparently well taken care of.
I read reviews where people said the Montis was better than the Theos. At first it was not apparent as the Theos sound superb but over listening for several hours with the wife we both agreed they did indeed sound better. The powered woofer is almost enough for me and with some types of music it is, to me it blends better with the panel, I had to turn my subs down a couple notches because these deliver much deeper, faster and substantial bass than the Theos. The wider and overall bigger panel just seems to deliver more smooth detail. It is not a night and day difference but enough where I am happy with the results.
I moved these to the main system, the Bryston 4B3 has absolutely no problem powering them and they sound fantastic together. I moved the Theos to 2.1 channel with the 3BSST2, quite simply they sound better than the Magnepans did. I don't know if I will keep the Theos or not, I do have other box speakers that I can use but I am not going to make that decision today.
At first I was skeptical but I have to agree with the others as they do sound better. Better woofer, bigger panel or crossover? Whatever it is, it's a home run.

 

[Robert D]

How old are the Magnepans that you had this problem with?
With Martin Logan you can replace the panel when it starts performing badly, can that be done with a Magenpan? I'm going to guess no.

 

[Zardos]

I am going to guess about 5 years old, they can rebuild them but it's pricey, I would imagine that's why Magnepan owners trade up about every 5 years. One can remove the cloth and re-glue the ribbons and wire but I was not interested in doing that. That is what I found out from my research, maybe some Magnepan aficionados can chime in. The place I got these from said they were going to stop taking these in if they were more than 5 years old because of this problem. From what I have seen Martin Logans seems to be more trouble free.

 

[john65b]

Regluing the Magnepan bass voicecoils is easy. I have done it many times with the new 3M N30 glue that is supposed to be much better than the older Milloxane glue from 3M. Now the quasi ribbon tweeter coils are not a delaminating problem that I can remember....

But Maggies panels are repairable / replaceable from Magnepan if you wish them to complete...and replacement/repair costs are quite a bit cheaper than new panels from Martin Logan

 

[Zardos]

Thanks for chiming in, mine were the quasi ribbon, I just got them and they were under a used warranty from the place I got them from so when they offered to let me return them I jumped on it, they are local to me and I just drove them over. I could have got a new set of .7 or even 1.7's cheaper than the Montis but apprehensive. It seems Magnepans might last 5-10 years, I have seen Martin Logans last 20 years or more if properly taken care of. I am sure plenty of people have Magnepans that are 30 years old and still sound fine but from my experience with them I will stick with ML.

 

[Robert D]

I am going to guess about 5 years old, they can rebuild them but it's pricey, I would imagine that's why Magnepan owners trade up about every 5 years. One can remove the cloth and re-glue the ribbons and wire but I was not interested in doing that. That is what I found out from my research, maybe some Magnepan aficionados can chime in. The place I got these from said they were going to stop taking these in if they were more than 5 years old because of this problem. From what I have seen Martin Logans seems to be more trouble free.

Wow, 5 years old is unexpected for me. I'd be pissed! Sounds like you made a good decision to switch to Martin Logan. I was close to buying some Magnepans years ago and I'm glad I did not.

 

[john65b]

Understood...I guess I would have just returned them too had I just purchased them....

I have a pair of Magnepan Tympani T-1D that are over 40 years old that I just reglued the voicecoils...should last another 40 years....as long as the mylar is intact - not ripped....thinking about adding a different HF driver (AMT Heil Air Motion) to take the 1000hz and higher...

My Tympani T-IVa were the best speakers I ever had - heard, but the three panels were HUGE...they were better than the MG-3.6 and even the MG-20.1 I had....would probably be a match for the CLX....the new Tympani 30.1 is way out of my reach at $30k

 

[StimpyWan]

I never knew the quasi ribbon panels had delamination issues too...! I thought the flat wire had improved the drivers, and I was hoping that design was more robust...! A shame.

Good luck with the ML Montis 'upgrade'. Glad to hear you both like them.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Maggie's are good up to a certain point. Beyond that, in terms of real vfm, they don't really improve no matter what you drive them with. They all have a characteristic ribbon - quasi-ribbon & tweeter ribbon signature... such that sometimes if not properly setup, each damn ribbon tends to walk off into the woods on its own.

I've owned nearly every model, starting from the MGIIIA to the MG20.1, I didn't own the MG20.7's nor the 30.7's. I've set them up for others but in its entire line up: it's the same damn plinths T-shaped feet, the same connections and those bloody annoying little circular bobs that have to be screwed in with a tiny Allen key ... pain in the Butt! With a capital B!

Then there's the ribbon tweeter element from the MG 3 series and above. This ribbon is so delicate, if you were to sneeze or fart on, it would snap! In all my ownership of Maggie's, I've replaced 16 ribbon tweeters, and it's not fun!

Other than that, they're great vfm, that's about it, not really highend compared to most. Definitely not comparable to ML. ML stats are in a different league.

Cheers, RJ

 

[Zardos]

I use Bananas so I never had to use the Allen but thought what a pain it would be if you did use it. This is my second pair and I probably will not be giving them a third chance. When I set up the Theos is the space these occupied it was apparent they were in a different league.
I think Magnepans are a great concept but they need to focus more on R&D to come up with more robust, sensitive designs.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes true. There are quite a number of Maggie owners who've gone to the extreme in enhancing their performance. This includes, internals of crossovers being changed to very high grade caps & other parts plus speaker terminals. They've redesigned the total bracing structure to such an affect, it includes steel frames, heavy duty plinths supported on bolts onto a sub plinth, which is then anchored to the floor. This is an absolute rock solid anchor to the floor that has virtually zero swaying of the panel. When Maggie's are placed on their standard T-shaped feet, they sway flap back & forth like crazy...not good for LF detail.

One in particular I had the pleasure of hearing, had all of these mods done, including an all aluminium frame. It was superb! A truly remarkable level of improvement, didn't sound like a typical Maggie at all. More closer to a full range Apogee or Audio Analysis ribbon panel.

However, the owner told me the total bill of parts, mods plus wiring, it actually cost him more than the price of the entire speakers! So that's the issue. This is where Magnepan stop with design principles and calls it a day, offering each MG series model as they are, with zero tweaks or any improvements. It's upto the owner if you really wanted to invest the extra spend into radically changing these classic ribbon panels but the majority won't.

As is the case with Magnepan, if they were to do this then the price would double and that doesn't stand for vfm in Maggie-Ville.

OTOH, considering the MG30.7's, which were priced well over 30grand and actually cost around 48grand in Aus. This is where Magnepan could have and should have improved the full panel from top to bottom. They could have very easily improved on the frames, plinths, speakers terminals, crossovers and wiring but they chose not to, and added huge margins just because it was a multi-panel type of speaker. What a waste! They could have easily incorporated these design elements and still charged another 10grand, making the 25 to 30grand price tag more justifiable. Then as an option, they could have included the powerful Neodymium magnets if the customer chooses Neodymium's, and then charged a premium fee for that type of upgrade. Once again, Magnepan chose not to.

I really don't see the point in purchasing a decent pair of Maggie's under 5grand and then having to spend another 5grand just to improve them! Must be really desperate to keep those particular Maggie's.

Alsyvox and Clarisys panels offer Neodymium's at a premium price and most owners are willing to spend this extra amount, simply because performance improvement is enhanced as much as 40%, that's how good the Neodymium's are.
Anyway, what do I know, I can only suggest, at the end of the day, I moved on from Maggie's.

Cheers to stats! Just love them.
Woof! RJ

 

[Robert D]

Yes true. There are quite a number of Maggie owners who've gone to the extreme in enhancing their performance. This includes, internals of crossovers being changed to very high grade caps & other parts plus speaker terminals. They've redesigned the total bracing structure to such an affect, it includes steel frames, heavy duty plinths supported on bolts onto a sub plinth, which is then anchored to the floor. This is an absolute rock solid anchor to the floor that has virtually zero swaying of the panel. When Maggie's are placed on their standard T-shaped feet, they sway flap back & forth like crazy...not good for LF detail.

One in particular I had the pleasure of hearing, had all of these mods done, including an all aluminium frame. It was superb! A truly remarkable level of improvement, didn't sound like a typical Maggie at all. More closer to a full range Apogee or Audio Analysis ribbon panel.

However, the owner told me the total bill of parts, mods plus wiring, it actually cost him more than the price of the entire speakers! So that's the issue. This is where Magnepan stop with design principles and calls it a day, offering each MG series model as they are, with zero tweaks or any improvements. It's upto the owner if you really wanted to invest the extra spend into radically changing these classic ribbon panels but the majority won't.

As is the case with Magnepan, if they were to do this then the price would double and that doesn't stand for vfm in Maggie-Ville.

OTOH, considering the MG30.7's, which were priced well over 30grand and actually cost around 48grand in Aus. This is where Magnepan could have and should have improved the full panel from top to bottom. They could have very easily improved on the frames, plinths, speakers terminals, crossovers and wiring but they chose not to, and added huge margins just because it was a multi-panel type of speaker. What a waste! They could have easily incorporated these design elements and still charged another 10grand, making the 25 to 30grand price tag more justifiable. Then as an option, they could have included the powerful Neodymium magnets if the customer chooses Neodymium's, and then charged a premium fee for that type of upgrade. Once again, Magnepan chose not to.

I really don't see the point in purchasing a decent pair of Maggie's under 5grand and then having to spend another 5grand just to improve them! Must be really desperate to keep those particular Maggie's.

Alsyvox and Clarisys panels offer Neodymium's at a premium price and most owners are willing to spend this extra amount, simply because performance improvement is enhanced as much as 40%, that's how good the Neodymium's are.
Anyway, what do I know, I can only suggest, at the end of the day, I moved on from Maggie's.

Cheers to stats! Just love them.
Woof! RJ

All of those problems really make me appreciate my Martin Logan's even more. The fact that I was able to get new panels from ML for my over 20 year old speakers is a great thing too. It seems very obvious which design is better, Magnepan vs Martin Logan.

 

[StimpyWan]

The last time I listened to Magnepans, it was years ago. It was a pair of III series Maggie's, with the ribbon tweeters. A new speaker for my local dealer, so the they went all out with set up, dedicating them to their own room, with top Audio Research tube gear.

Well, on first listen, imaging was uncanny. The best I'd heard. But, no slam, no dynamics, no drive, no prat as the British say. They might as well have been a pair of LS3/5A mini monitors, as their balance was similar. To be honest, I found them too relaxing, more like uninvolving, so uninvolving that I literally started dozing off. While I do respect what Magnepans do well, they just weren't the speakers for me. Luckily, even my EM-ESL's are more involving than those Magnepans...!

 

[Big Dog RJ]

They do have dynamics, very good transient control and great soundstage depth but they have to be driven properly. When I first helped a very good mate of mine set up his MG30.7's, he was using a full array of McIntosh amps, MC462, MC452 and MC301. It drove the 30.7's just about ok to certain levels, and the musicality was quite nice. However, later on during my travels, I heard the 30.7's driven by Dan D's Relentless monoblocks and the Momentum preamp, this was at a whole different level. Dan D's amps were able to fully grip the huge 30.7's with whiplash bass, and superb transient control, it was completely in a different dimension. This is the one thing, amongst many others that Wendell Diller doesn't mention about these very large Maggie's, apart from inadequate room dimensions.

That's the very first time I've seen those big blue meters swing all the way to the right, and I mean full swing! Goes to show even the powerful stereo 450w of McIntosh couldn't drive these Maggie's properly. The MC601 or 1200's would have been better.

When I owned Maggie's, I always used very high powered tube amps, VTL Wotans, VTL Ichiban, Manley Labs Ref350's, CJ Prem8A's and Melos 400w triode monoblocks. These were able to drive Maggie's to their full potential, reproducing a greater sense of scale, soundstage width, plenty of dynamics and top class HF extension.

The ironic thing though, use any of those amps I've mentioned on ML's and the performance is just extraordinary! Quite a few miles ahead of Maggie's, there's no doubt..

Cheers, and enjoy those stats!
RJ

 

[Zardos]

Well after some serious listening and comparing them to the Theos, I decided I like the sound overall of the Theos better and returned the Montis. They managed to do a few things better but they sounded bright and harsh with a few things, also sounds stage and imaging just didn't seem quite as good. I really didn't want to go back to a box speaker so after some research I decided to give Magnapan another try. I went with some 1.7i, but just about new this time. They sounded good with the Bryson 3B sst2 but I decided to try them with the Bryson 4b3 and they sounded better. The Theos sound pretty much the same with either amp so I put the 3B sst2 on those. So far I really like the sound of both and there's no clear winner in my mind. They have decent bass on their own and the Paradigm sub blends extremely well with them. So we will see how it goes.

 

[Leporello]

Yes true. There are quite a number of Maggie owners who've gone to the extreme in enhancing their performance. This includes, internals of crossovers being changed to very high grade caps & other parts plus speaker terminals. They've redesigned the total bracing structure to such an affect, it includes steel frames, heavy duty plinths supported on bolts onto a sub plinth, which is then anchored to the floor. This is an absolute rock solid anchor to the floor that has virtually zero swaying of the panel. When Maggie's are placed on their standard T-shaped feet, they sway flap back & forth like crazy...not good for LF detail.

One in particular I had the pleasure of hearing, had all of these mods done, including an all aluminium frame. It was superb! A truly remarkable level of improvement, didn't sound like a typical Maggie at all. More closer to a full range Apogee or Audio Analysis ribbon panel.

However, the owner told me the total bill of parts, mods plus wiring, it actually cost him more than the price of the entire speakers! So that's the issue. This is where Magnepan stop with design principles and calls it a day, offering each MG series model as they are, with zero tweaks or any improvements. It's upto the owner if you really wanted to invest the extra spend into radically changing these classic ribbon panels but the majority won't.

As is the case with Magnepan, if they were to do this then the price would double and that doesn't stand for vfm in Maggie-Ville.

OTOH, considering the MG30.7's, which were priced well over 30grand and actually cost around 48grand in Aus. This is where Magnepan could have and should have improved the full panel from top to bottom. They could have very easily improved on the frames, plinths, speakers terminals, crossovers and wiring but they chose not to, and added huge margins just because it was a multi-panel type of speaker. What a waste! They could have easily incorporated these design elements and still charged another 10grand, making the 25 to 30grand price tag more justifiable. Then as an option, they could have included the powerful Neodymium magnets if the customer chooses Neodymium's, and then charged a premium fee for that type of upgrade. Once again, Magnepan chose not to.

I really don't see the point in purchasing a decent pair of Maggie's under 5grand and then having to spend another 5grand just to improve them! Must be really desperate to keep those particular Maggie's.

Alsyvox and Clarisys panels offer Neodymium's at a premium price and most owners are willing to spend this extra amount, simply because performance improvement is enhanced as much as 40%, that's how good the Neodymium's are.
Anyway, what do I know, I can only suggest, at the end of the day, I moved on from Maggie's.

Cheers to stats! Just love them.
Woof! RJ

To me, the highest end Maggies never matched the magic of a 'stat. My impressions are from dealers and audio shows, never bringing them home and trying them. But I'm too old to change now.

 

[Zardos]

To me, the highest end Maggies never matched the magic of a 'stat. My impressions are from dealers and audio shows, never bringing them home and trying them. But I'm too old to change now.

I never gave them or even ML a real chance until recently. Just out of sheer curiosity, and being tired of box speakers I decided to give them a try. I never was impressed with either in the showroom, I don't think they ever had them set up right.
I get a little something different out of the ML and Maggie's and lean ever so slightly to the ML's but having a good time comparing them.

 

[codesx100]

Well after some serious listening and comparing them to the Theos, I decided I like the sound overall of the Theos better and returned the Montis. They managed to do a few things better but they sounded bright and harsh with a few things, also sounds stage and imaging just didn't seem quite as good. I really didn't want to go back to a box speaker so after some research I decided to give Magnapan another try. I went with some 1.7i, but just about new this time. They sounded good with the Bryson 3B sst2 but I decided to try them with the Bryson 4b3 and they sounded better. The Theos sound pretty much the same with either amp so I put the 3B sst2 on those. So far I really like the sound of both and there's no clear winner in my mind. They have decent bass on their own and the Paradigm sub blends extremely well with them. So we will see how it goes.

Interesting, what sounded better on the Theos over the Montis?

 

[Zardos]

Interesting, what sounded better on the Theos over the Montis?

The Theos image and sound stage is better and they are non-fatiguing. The Montis could bring out a bit more detail at the cost of being too bright sometimes. I don't know if it was my room but the magic the Theos possess was just not present in the Montis. I bought them used and it's hard to imagine the previous owner not even listening to them enough to break them in but I have seen it before. I have read a few other reviews that preferred the Theos over Montis, it's nice to know that I'm not alone. Maybe my room just isn't big enough to accommodate the Montis, I could not get the new Magnepan's to sound good either so I took those back as well so the quest goes on.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

That sounds about right. With regards to the Reserve line, I first started with the Ethos, having sold off my Quads (ESL 2905 & 2912). Then I went onto the Montis, and later the Summit but actually kept the Ethos, for whatever reason, it gelled well with all parameters (system matching + room). Of course prior to that, it was the SL3's and onto the CLSIIz's. With that particular change over, there were significant advantages of the CLSIIz's, such that the full range electrostat proved to be far more open than the older hybrid series. The only issue with the CLS was that it couldn't reproduce the low notes. This all changed dramatically once I moved towards the new Masterpiece line. With the ESL11A's and 13A's, these latest stat-hybrids were remarkable in what they offered and the pricing wasn't too bad either. Compared to most lofty high-end speakers, ML's stat-hybrids are real VFM.

If you've come across one particular speaker system, going up the relevant models doesn't necessarily mean that those speakers are better. Yes, the price is higher but doesn't mean that you're going to get significant levels of improvement compared to what works well in your circumstances. What works well and best for you and your given room is basically it! There's really no point in trying to push the boundaries just to get better sound. Changing that one major component, such as speakers or amplifiers, may also involve changing room dimensions... and once this is triggered off, you'll mess up the whole thing and the vicious cycle begins! I refer to this as "re-inventing the wheel."

If you've found something that ticks all the boxes and meets your inner most satisfaction, just sit back and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ