Expression 13A rake/placement suggestions

[andrew.hendler]

Hi All -

I received my 13As a few weeks ago, but my Pass Int 60 has not arrived yet as it's on back order. As a result, my dealer has loaned me a Krell Vanguard integrated amp to use in the interim.

After I received them, one of the guys from the dealer came over to help place and calibrate them. Previously I had been listening with no rake, toed in more, and further into the room.

While calibrating, he moved them back closer to the walls, saying the 13As woofer is so long - and because of ARC they don't need to be pushed out as much. He toed them in much less than they were (very slight), with a flashlight, and adjusted the rake significantly - tilting them forward.

I don't have a way to measure the rake, but looking at the spike - there were about 9 threads of the spike visible on the back spikes of each speaker.

While this sounded very exciting, the upper mids were pushed forward to much and it caused me slight fatigure.

Just as a sanity check, I removed the rake entirely, and the fatigue was completely gone - but I lost some pop and imaging suffered slightly - so I tried to find an inbetween.

I adjusted the rake to 4 threads visible on the screw - and this was a good compromise for a while. But eventually it still seemed to cause some very minor fatigue. I also have it connected to my TV and the dialogue is so in your face - almost beaming - it can grow tiresome over a whole movie.

I proceeded to remove the rake last night and listen to an album. No fatigue - but it sounded duller than I remember. When I first got them, no rake didn't sound dull - so maybe it's just that Ive grown used to the rake?

I'm curious as to how to best find that sweet spot, and if there are any other tweeks in placement I should make. Speakers are about 8 feet apart and I am 10 feet back. The back wall is at least 12-14 feet behind my sitting position, That said, I also have a new amp coming - which I imagine is slightly warmer - so I am not sure if I should just wait for that until I make extensive changes.

Here is a picture of my room. That coffee table, which I know isn't helping, is going.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Len44]

I'd suggest moving your (very nice) speakers forward -- away from the wall behind the speakers. Certainly get the speakers ahead of the cabinet below the TV -- at least the panel part of the speakers.

 

[ttocs]

Congrats on all the new great stuff!

As Len said, moving farther from the wall, toed as they are, would be better with respect to the stat panel's rear wave.

But,
Your speakers are still very new and fatigue can be expected until the panels have well over 100+ hours on them. Mine took 130 hours to rid themselves of piercing behavior.

 

[andrew.hendler]

Thanks - yeah, I don't know why he pushed them back so far - they were previously as you've described.

I've dealt with fatigue before, and this is very minor - but it's still there. Good to know that with some more burn in, tweaks in placement, and my pass labs coming in - should do the trick.

 

[Robert D]

So do they sound better now not toed in so much? I've found my Prodigy speakers need to be towed in considerably in order to get the center stage sound. If they were sitting like your's in the picture they would sound like 2 speakers with a lot less imaging.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts because you had them originally toed in a lot more. I originally had mine facing like your photo and wasn't happy with the imaging.

I'm a novice with speaker placement. I do use Audyssey, but the sound changes very little when I turn it off and on. So on my setup, Audyssey seems to not interfere much.

 

[andrew.hendler]

So do they sound better now not toed in so much? I've found my Prodigy speakers need to be towed in considerably in order to get the center stage sound. If they were sitting like your's in the picture they would sound like 2 speakers with a lot less imaging.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts because you had them originally toed in a lot more. I originally had mine facing like your photo and wasn't happy with the imaging.

I'm a novice with speaker placement. I do use Audyssey, but the sound changes very little when I turn it off and on. So on my setup, Audyssey seems to not interfere much.

I liked it better with less toe in. The soundstage size and imaging got much better; the soundstage collapsed a bit with the additional toe in- but it was a lot. I am trying to nail the tonal balance now, but it's a process.

 

[Robert D]

I liked it better with less toe in. The soundstage size and imaging got much better; the soundstage collapsed a bit with the additional toe in- but it was a lot. I am trying to nail the tonal balance now, but it's a process.

Maybe the newer speakers dont need as much toe in. It seems like my sweet spot is a bit small, but its at least there. When I had them more out it just sounded like two speakers playing.

I never messed with the rake on mine. I have mine set flat, but thats a different speaker.

 

[twich54]

Andrew, welcome to the group !

As i look at the pic you provided is the right speaker the same distance from a side wall / corner boundary ? I ask because I suspect some corner bass loading with your left speaker. Do you utilize any acoustic treatments in your room ? if you have enough room behind your listening position so as to not put yourself up against a wall (not good!) I suggest bringing them out another foot or so for starters. remember, one change at a time !

 

[andrew.hendler]

Andrew, welcome to the group !

As i look at the pic you provided is the right speaker the same distance from a side wall / corner boundary ? I ask because I suspect some corner bass loading with your left speaker. Do you utilize any acoustic treatments in your room ? if you have enough room behind your listening position so as to not put yourself up against a wall (not good!) I suggest bringing them out another foot or so for starters. remember, one change at a time !

No, there is no right wall. No acoustic treatments yet - but eventually. I just got the speakers 2 weeks ago. The guy who helped place them mentioned something about exactly what you describe, so I will probably do that because I can definitely move them forward.

I adjusted the rake from nothing to tilting forward back to where I previously had them. They sound good, but I was getting fatigued after an hour and a half. Also voices were pretty big and forward, maybe slightly too much. It’s hard to understand what each change is affecting to know what to look for, but the rake definitely affects the upper mids, highs and imaging the most.

ive just been trying to dial that in to a level which is fatigueless but not too forward.

 

[andrew.hendler]

I adjusted the rake again tilting forward to half of where I had it previously - and I need to listen more, but it sounds like I hit a sweet spot. It's amazing that even very small adjustments to the rake affect the tonal balance as much as it does!

Having the dealer come back to help me move it, and redo arc - since the spikes are on. I know I can get this right - as it sounded great in the showroom, and it wasn't particularly a good room, and setup was minimal. Also have the new amp on the way shortly, and I really liked that combination.

I also tossed a comforter on the coffee table and that seemed to make an improvement.

Thanks all for your help.

Best,
Andrew

 

[Lightloopy]

Agree with ttocs- these speakers need serious time to break in. The listening fatigue is real ( and scary) when they are new. Save your time for now w/ trying to fine tune it. Just play the heck out of them for the next couple months and try to be patient. It's hard but you will be amazed down the road.

 

[andrew.hendler]

Agree with ttocs- these speakers need serious time to break in. The listening fatigue is real ( and scary) when they are new. Save your time for now w/ trying to fine tune it. Just play the heck out of them for the next couple months and try to be patient. It's hard but you will be amazed down the road.

I'm already amazed, so looking forward to further break in and the arrival of my Pass Int 60.

I have been a high end headphone guy and dealt with fatigue many times. I've always found a solution. The only overwhelming thing is there are so many more variables with speakers (and these speakers in particular).

Glad to know they will further improve, however! I'm very happy with where I've gotten the sound for the time being.

 

[ttocs]

I played Pandora for about the first fifty hours or so because it was random music and I didn't need to pay attention to anything except for the times Pandora would time-out and need input to tell it I was still "there". Then I played lots of different music trying to find some that would exhibit problems, and I definitely found some tracks.

One track in particular was on Santana's Moonflower album, and there was one long, sustaining note that was absolutely piercing and shrill until after 130 hours of break-in.

I my opinion, during break-in, speakers need to experience as many types of sounds as possible, many times over.

I'm looking forward to hear what you have to say about your new amp with your speakers!

 

[Len44]

I'm already amazed, so looking forward to further break in and the arrival of my Pass Int 60.

I have been a high end headphone guy and dealt with fatigue many times. I've always found a solution. The only overwhelming thing is there are so many more variables with speakers (and these speakers in particular).

Glad to know they will further improve, however! I'm very happy with where I've gotten the sound for the time being.

Yep, looks like you're on the right track. As mentioned, break-in, room treatments, trying different toe-in / placement and rake will all make a difference. Think of it a tuning the speakers to your room (which is easier than a new room, I suppose). Also, pretty sure you're going to really like that Pass amp. Best of luck, and please continue to keep us posted.

 

[Robert D]

I noticed a big difference in how my new Prodigy panels sounded after 6 months +. I repositioned the speakers again and ran Audyssey after that. My BF 210 sub broke in as well. Sounds sweet now.

I think using my speakers as part of my home theater helped break them in. Lots of different kinds of sounds on tv/film.

 

[twich54]

I have been a high end headphone guy and dealt with fatigue many times. I've always found a solution. The only overwhelming thing is there are so many more variables with speakers (and these speakers in particular).

and the number 1 reason is...... the room in which they reside !!

Those that know me and others on here always tell folks, the room, before to start spending silly money on wire and useless tweaks.

 

[MisterB]

Congrats on the 13's. Very nice! I have not yet experimented with rake angle with my 11's, but have played around extensively with distance from front wall and toe-in. Small changes can make a big difference. I was at about 4.5' out from the front wall with quite a bit of toe-in. Using the flashlight trick, toe-in was probably slightly past the 1/3 mark toward center. I recently rearranged a bit and pulled them out to an even 5' off the front wall and decreased toe-in a bit. Nice increase in soundstage width while still getting really good center imaging. They are 8' apart and my listening position is 8 feet back in an equilateral triangle. I agree that with ARC you don't need to pull them out for the woofers' sake, but in my experience, the panels sound best when given some room to breathe. Too close to the front wall without some absorption and the reflection of the rear wave can smear the image. Having said all that, the right position is whatever one sounds the best to you. Enjoy!

 

[ttocs]

^^^^ What he said!

Location is king! The speakers, the MLP, and the relation of both to each other, and the relation of each to the walls. Each item has its own little happy place. Move one thing, and it'll affect another. Everything is connected.

I recently proved this, again, a couple weeks ago. I was looking for the spot my new C18 Focus speaker wanted to be and wasn't finding it in the spots I hoped would work. So I began moving the speaker in small increments and found some small location changes started to reduce a very wide null. So after moving the speaker, then the MLP, then the speaker, then the MLP, etc, etc, etc, (The King And I quote), I found the spot for each where the null was the least, and the final movements were less than 2" each time that was reducing a null from 200-500Hz. Little, teeny, tiny, movements - once things are close - will have a pretty big effect.

The end result was that the speaker ended up to be 31" from its face to the wall, and the MLP moved over 1' back from where it has been for a while.

edit: I just noticed that another post happened at the same time as mine. So the arrows should've pointed to Twitch's post. But also can apply to MisterB's post.

 

[DaVinci Media]

Ive been doing this a loooooong time, pull them out into the room more! ARC is there to help with problems, but that doesn't mean you should rely on it to push a inferior placement if you don't have to..

 

[ttocs]

Ive been doing this a loooooong time, pull them out into the room more! ARC is there to help with problems, but that doesn't mean you should rely on it to push a inferior placement if you don't have to..

You're not that old Shawn, so you can remove a couple of those 'O's. In a few years, you can put 'em back.