CLSII potential newer buyer

[legarem]

Hello
I always dreamed to buy a pair of CLS
Many peoples advised me that ML panels have a definite life span.
I didn't listened theim as I have to travel 3 hours to do listening, He claimed that everything is ok and well cared.
A friend of mine had the original CLS and ML changed panels under warranty. Since that he didn't had any problems. He gave them to his little son after being not used for 20 years. Not long ago. they connected them and they play flawlessly.
I include 2 pictures of the speakers I look for. By what you can see, are they older or newer panels ?
Any info is welcome
Thanks

 

[Brad225]

Welcome to the gang Legarem.

There should be some markings on the panel themselves. It is hard to say but they look in good shape with the frame alterations.

What are they asking?

This is a model that is power hungry and will need good equipment upstream of them. I owned CLS II, IIA and IIZ and they are amazing but will show any weakness fed them. That said if the price is right, give it a try. You can always sell them if they don't turn out to be what you hoped for.

I bought my first pair used for $500 and new panels were $800 then so it was an easier decision I'm sure.

What do you currently have for speakers and what electronics.

I'm sure others with add their opinion.

Regards
Brad

 

[legarem]

Hello Brad

The price asked is $1800 CDN ($ 1440 USD)

I have top notch equipment but presently, I have 4 ohms speakers with a sensitivity of 91 db/1W/1M which are driven with a marvelous JOB 225 amp (Goldmund). This amp is a high bandwidth amp like Spectral and are supposed to be bad with capacitive and low loads. I heard they could oscillate. I'm a tube lover but this amp still amaze me since I have it. I could get a Classe DR3 or a DR3 VHC. Last one is a high current monster class A amp.

 

[R.I.P]

Hello
I always dreamed to buy a pair of CLS
Many peoples advised me that ML panels have a definite life span.
I didn't listened theim as I have to travel 3 hours to do listening, He claimed that everything is ok and well cared.
A friend of mine had the original CLS and ML changed panels under warranty. Since that he didn't had any problems. He gave them to his little son after being not used for 20 years. Not long ago. they connected them and they play flawlessly.
I include 2 pictures of the speakers I look for. By what you can see, are they older or newer panels ?
Any info is welcome
ThanksView attachment 24664View attachment 24665

Taking into account just their appearance they look great and have custom wood additions. Whether upgrade actually improve sonic I do not know and perhaps not matter if wood additions do not detract from or spoil sonics. Owner, has taken very good care of them.

CLS2 not a good match for tube amp. Require minimum 200 watt rms per channel solid state amp that is stable down to 1ohm. The least expensive suitable amp may be Sanders ESL amp. I do not know if synergy exist. Price used to be 4k now 6k.

Nordost SPM or Blue heaven loudspeaker cable suitable.

I would recommend ELS 9 and matching anthem STR integrated. I listen to this combination in 21 feet by 14 feet room. One very important point to understand is in order for music to flow and sonics to be airy, detailed hybrid location inside room has to precisely right. The ELS 9 sounds great with all kinds of music and sonics are outstanding especially if recording is outstanding meaning clear and dynamic. On the other hand original CLS in order to sound outstanding depend to a far greater extent on recording quality.

Anthem MCA 225 and STR integrated have basically the same power amplifier section. MCA 225 is half price of STR. In 10% greater than price of STR possible to acquire holo audio spring 3 kitsune dac with MCA 225. This specialized equipment combination I would recommend over STR integrated if intend to connect only digital sources like computer, streamer etc.

If possible audition ELS 9 with STR integrated prior to audition CLS2.

 

[Brad225]

legarem, I would contend that you can run CLS II, A and Z with tubes with wonderful results.
I used both ARC Classic 120 and VTM200 on them. The CLSII's are the more difficult of those 3.

If you go to listen to them take your amp and pre with you. I realize it is a bit of a pain but you
will know for sure if you like what you hear or like the possibility of what you might hear in the future.
I would personally prefer CLS's of some iteration over 9's but that is for each person to decide for themselves.

Let us know what you decide.

 

[legarem]

As I already have a ML Depth I I'm more tempted to get the CLS. I suppose this sub could match the CLS as it is made by ML.

 

[legarem]

As for the amp, I would use a venerable Classe DR3 VHC which has only have 45 W/C at 8 ohm, 90W/C at 4 ohm and 360W/C at 1 ohm. I suppose this monster could drive easily the CLS.

 

[Robert D]

As I already have a ML Depth I I'm more tempted to get the CLS. I suppose this sub could match the CLS as it is made by ML.

I've not had any problems matching a sub to my Prodigy speakers. Ive had a Depth i, BF210, and Power Sound Audio 21 inch sub. All blend in seamlessly just by using Audyssey.

 

[Brad225]

I ran 4 Depth i subs with my CLS speakers.
It was 4 due to room issues.
I still run the same for subs with my CLX.
You will have no problems having them blend together.

 

[legarem]

Here are the two panels serial numbers.
Do someone can give me if they are original or they were changed

By the way, I made an error. I have a Descent I sub not a Depth I

Thanks

 

[DanR]

Here you go buddy and welcome to the forum. Here is the serial# decoder. Looking at the serial# you provided the panels were built in May of 1997 making them 25 years old.

 

[DanR]

Legarem, it looks like the cost of new panels for CLS II is about $2800 US dollars. If that amount is correct $2800 plus $1440 in US dollars would be $4240 total and myself I think that is a great price for a pair of CLS II with new panels. Last year I purchased a pair of Odysseys and ordered new panels and ended up with a beautiful sounding pair of speakers for about $4000 total. In this day and age of crazy prices I truly believe that to be a great bargain. Those CLS II Speakers look to be in great shape keep us updated as to what you decide. There are a lot of people here that can help you out with questions that you may have.

 

[legarem]

Here you go buddy and welcome to the forum. Here is the serial# decoder. Looking at the serial# you provided the panels were built in May of 1997 making them 25 years old.

Thanks a lot

 

[cabinum]

@legarem When I originally purchased my pair of CLS IIz's from @Brad225, I was powering them with a pair of 60wpc Cary SixPacs. They sounded wonderful, but were underpowered at higher listening levels. I have since tried Hafler 33H, Audio Research VT200 and settled on Carver Crimson 350's which have been a great match. I, too, have a Descent i that is well matched to the CLS panels. It sounds like you have found a great deal and I think you'll be quite happy driving them with tubes.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day Leg, just came across your post.

Ah! The CLS... beautiful stats! Those were the glory days of ML, apart from the mighty Statement Evo-II's.

As having previously owned the CLSIIz's, have successfully driven these stats "full range" no subs- with the following SS amps as far as memory serves:
Krell, Bryston, Threshold, Classe, Sumo and Aragon. At one point setting up for a customer, we used his older Parasound monoblocks, huge amps, they don't make those anymore. They were like the Threshold Stasis SA E12's, very high current capacity with highly stable voltages. Those are the very two elements that will drive stats supremely well.
You can't have one or the other... without stable voltages the current capacity suffers and as a result the amps Output stage runs out of puff!

Then I must mention the tube gear I used on the CLSIIz's, which took that level of musicality to another dimension!
Conrad johnson, ARC, VTL, Manley Labs and Sonic Frontiers. Used various models from Premier series, to Wotans and the very powerful Ichibans. Those were VTL glory days. Such tube gear, have very high voltages, so their current is supplied by carefully selected trannies (transformers). These mains and output trannies are designed so well that they produce the necessary current for impedence matching to the tubes output stage, this is the part that distinguishes between average tube gear and "well designed" tube gear.

Nonetheless, whatever amplifiers you decide to use, just make sure they don't run out of puff... don't compromise on the main power amp!

BTW that Classe amp looks tops! From the specs you've provided, it seems it can handle down to 1 Ohm loads, so no issues there. These stats generally dip to less than 1 Ohm, around 0.7 Ohms and can rise to 22 Ohms in a blink of an eye! This notorious impedence swing is what causes many amplifiers to crap shoot. Even the high powered ones. So it's not all about watts or power, rather high current and highly stable voltages will get those stats across the line. Nothing else will.

Very interesting type of bracing the previous owner has done, seems like a solid structure to support the back sway... if any. I wonder why he's selling? Perhaps a darn good reason .

Cheers to the classic CLS, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ

 

[ML4Life]

CLSII's are fantastic. Picked up mine from @Lightloopy on the forum here and have been thrilled with them. I do run two ML Dynamo's with them for an extra kick. Currently feeding them with McIntosh MC257 Power Amp.

 

[legarem]

I will get my CLSII Monday. I will finally use a Classe DR15 amp. Presently, I have a Goldmund Job225 which is not supposed to do the task to drive the CLS!!. I also have mono blocks Melos single ended triodes SE-75 which deliver 75W each. Each amp has 4 X 6KG6 / EL509 . Being in single ended mode, will they correctly drive the CLS ? I will try.

 

[Brad225]

Congratulations legarem. Please keep us updated on how you feel about the sound with different amps.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I will get my CLSII Monday. I will finally use a Classe DR15 amp. Presently, I have a Goldmund Job225 which is not supposed to do the task to drive the CLS!!. I also have mono blocks Melos single ended triodes SE-75 which deliver 75W each. Each amp has 4 X 6KG6 / EL509 . Being in single ended mode, will they correctly drive the CLS ? I will try.

Ah! Melos! Oh, nice one mate.
I had these very same monoblocks driving a pair of Maggie MG3 5/r panels, superb drive and control. Another mate of mine also used these very same amps on his Maggie's as well, plus later on he switched over to Avant Garde Horns. The Melos were way too powerful for the Horns, such that it caused a loud hum. The AG Horns are 110dB efficiency with benign loads, so even if a rat farted it would still drive those horns.

Later on I used the Melos with Quad ESL's and the CLSIIz's, just before selling it off to another customer as part of a speaker- amp deal. I kept the CLSIIz's after that and drove it with the CJ Premier 11A (stereo tube amp 70w/ch Class AB) marvelous! It wasn't too loud nor too soft, just fabulous musicality. Listen for endless hours... CLSIIz's aren't meant for blasting the roof off, they're meant towards the enjoyment of recorded music.

Interesting you mentioned Melos... when we had an issue with the soft-start circuit, we actually contacted Mr. Melos himself. Based in San Fran, he asked so where are you calling from? He was totally bowled out when we replied from Colombo! How on earth did my amps end up over there was his reply! Sadly the company closed and Melos went fishing.

They're fabulous amplifiers but are quite dated back .. this is going way back to 99/2001. So quite a lot has changed since other designs in tube amplification. Nonetheless, if your Melos are upto spec and working perfectly, they'll drive those CLS stats beautifully! It's just glorious!

Cheers, and enjoy those finest tunes!
Woof! RJ

 

[legarem]

Hello Woof

Let me tell you. Using these Melos was sometimes a nightmare. First. I had to draw the schematics because nobody has them in the world. The output sockets develop bad contacts so I had to change them. The circuit board heat so much so it blackened in some places. This means conductive carbon. With near 600 VDC on some board traces, I had arcing and redesigned the way high voltage goes to the tubes with teflon wires, repositioning fuses etc. These amps like most Melos gear had reliability problems and technical design which needed work to work correctly. Mark Porzolli, the designer of Melos gear was sick about using mosfet buffers between each tube stage. I stripped some and it helped a lot for the sound. Leaving for one weekend, I forgot to turn off y amps. When returning at home, I opened the house door an smelled a strong burnt odor. One amp was not working and had an OPT toasted !!!. Arcing again was the culprit before I decided to do the BIG job. I discovered the OPT in these amps are in reality push pull OPTs connected in single ended mode !!! Square waves in the bass was not good and guess why ?. A friend of mine had a monster pair od Audionote PP OPTs with 1.8 K primary. This is what I needed. They had exactly the same size and mounting bolts as the originals. As They were still PP OPTs, I saw in Glass Audio an article from Dave wolze wo made SE opt with PP big Hammonds OPTs. He used a hacksaw and made two gaps (cuts) in the armature to convert PP OPTs to SE OPTs. As I didn't had the patience to take 3 hours to do that per transformer, One of my friends did them with a band saw. I finished them by hand to take care of internal copper bobbin. Now, how it sounds ? MARVELLOUS, New amps, incredible, I saved my amps and they are hard to beat with good speakers. It is shame because many Melos gear is going in the garbage because nobody can repair them. I really thought being alone to use these SE-75, More about these amps driving .... the CLSII.