Bi-wired (bi-amped?) my Vista and it sounds better, but I'm not sure how

[akm3]

OK, I got a pair of vantages hooked to an Adcom GFA-7400 and a Lexicon MC-1.

I liked the sound running with the jumpers on the Vista, but tried to bi-wire them anyway just to see how it would work. I'm running a Y-cable out of the Left and Right outputs and putting each one into it's own channel on the amplifier, then running the panel from one amp channel and the woofer from the other. Total amp channels used is four. I hope I explained that clearly.

It sounds better, tighter, like the sound is more under control. The panel also sounds more 'relaxed' I don't know how to describe it. But I'm not sure if I'm really hearing it or if I'm psyching myself out expecting an improvement (witness: power cable purchasers)

Anyone else who went to the bi-wire (or is it bi-amping? I'm not sure) notice a subtle increase in presence and authority of the sound while also making it feel less strained?

It's like the speakers were trained by Mr. Miagi and now walk around with confidence and their head held high instead of slouching and not making eye contact with people

 

[eknuds01]

I am not sure if you are bi-amping. You are probably bi-wiring. What kind of cables do you have? I am not sure I understand the y-cable layout. Are they something of this ilk: http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=20

I have something like those monster cables (an older model within the M-line). One end has 4 connections that hit speaker terminals and the other has a pair of banana plugs that run to the amp.

I could be misunderstanding your post, but I suppose it is possible to bi-amp with your Arcam since it's a multichannel amp. For that to be the case, you'd need 2 pair (4 sets of wires) running from 4 channels and split between the ESL and woofer terminals on your Logans.

Also, keep in mind that there are two ways to bi-amp speakers. Passively bi-amping involves using the speaker's built-in cross over system. Some argue that this is not really true bi-amping since the signal is not being split up (the higher freqs go to the panel, and lower freqs go to the woofer).

Active bi-amping involves bypassing the internal cross over and using an external system to divy up the frequency content.

There are numerous posts and opinions about bi-amping and bi-wiring. The latter is certainly the cheaper way to go for most since it only involves purchasing a special kind of cable (if you only have a 2-channel amp).

Passive bi-amping is next on the list, but I don't know many people that do this. Now, sunfire does have the option (on their amps) to let you use the current source to power the tweeter/panel and the voltage source to run the woofer.

A few people like to passive (or active) bi-amp with two different kinds of amps: tubes for the panels and a solid state monster for the woofers.

It's all totally subjective (duh) and when I was at Overture (mega, super high end store in Delaware) I asked the rep if he likes to bi-amp speakers. The short answer is no. He told me it can be a pain to use different amps, even the same model from the same manufacturer because there's a potential issue with gain. These guys sell some of the finest speakers in the world and, in general, they don't bi-amp.

regards,
Erik

 

[eknuds01]

I liked the sound running with the jumpers on the Vista, but tried to bi-wire them anyway just to see how it would work. I'm running a Y-cable out of the Left and Right outputs and putting each one into it's own channel on the amplifier, then running the panel from one amp channel and the woofer from the other. Total amp channels used is four. I hope I explained that clearly.

OK, that sounds like passive bi-amping to me.

I'd be curious to see how many Logan owners here have tried this with their multichannel amps...

 

[MiTT]

OK, that sounds like passive bi-amping to me.

I'd be curious to see how many Logan owners here have tried this with their multichannel amps...

I'm doing it on my setup. My BAT VK-31SE has both single ended and balanced outs, so I run balanced out to 2 channels of my VK-6200 that power my stat panels, and I run single ended out to 2 other channels on the VK-6200 for the woofers. There is a discernable difference in frequency extension and control on the bass over just bi-wiring.

akm3, the only thing I like better about my setup is that I'm running good discrete Synergistic Research cables for all 4 channels of information. Your limitation is likely the quality of the "Y" adapters you are using. Any possibility your pre-amp has multiple sets of outputs? I've never seen a "high quality" Y adapter, just the cheesy ones you can pick up at Radio Shack.

 

[wings]

Passive Biamping

I'd be curious to see how many Logan owners here have tried this with their multichannel amps...[/QUOTE]

I was doing exactly that for a number of years with a Theta Dreadnaught 5 Ch amp, with one channel going unused.
I don't use a preamp, just a passive device with 2 stereo Nobel 50K pots (used for ground, signal goes thru one resistor) so each input had its own volumn control, one set for left and one set for the right channels.
My CD player has two sets of stereo outputs, so no 'Y' adapter was needed.

About a month ago I sold the Theta and picked up a Citation 7.1 amp, which has four identical direct coupled channels (I had both amps in house to A/B and preferred the Citation's voicing). The Citation has the capability to strap the channels together. Individually its 150wpc or ~400wpc strapped.
Currently I have the amp strapped and am trying to decide which way I like better. But, this is on a pair of Klipsch RF7's with a modified crossover.
So far at low volume I prefer the biamp approach, but at higher levels the 400wpc is just awesome !!!

My Summits should be here sometime next week, so things should be different with their active woofer section, but who knows...

 

[akm3]

I'm doing it on my setup. My BAT VK-31SE has both single ended and balanced outs, so I run balanced out to 2 channels of my VK-6200 that power my stat panels, and I run single ended out to 2 other channels on the VK-6200 for the woofers. There is a discernable difference in frequency extension and control on the bass over just bi-wiring.

akm3, the only thing I like better about my setup is that I'm running good discrete Synergistic Research cables for all 4 channels of information. Your limitation is likely the quality of the "Y" adapters you are using. Any possibility your pre-amp has multiple sets of outputs? I've never seen a "high quality" Y adapter, just the cheesy ones you can pick up at Radio Shack.

Oh no, I'm not having a problem, I *do* hear an improvement, I just can't accurately describe how the sound is improved and wondering if I really am hearing better sound or if I'm fooling myself expecting a different sound.

The Y-cables are $3.60 Hosa cables from a local crap music shop. They are 'junk' or 'budget pro-audio' depending on your point of view

Even with the junk, it sounds better to me.

 

[JohnLomnicki]

Bi-Amping Vistas with Denon 3808

I just learned that I can use my 3808 to bi-amp my Vistas. I'll let you know if I hear a difference.

Anybody else bi-amp with the 3808?

 

[tsmooth]

The Y-cables are $3.60 Hosa cables from a local crap music shop. They are 'junk' or 'budget pro-audio' depending on your point of view

Even with the junk, it sounds better to me.

I would talk to your local delear, as manufactures do make a y-split cable so you do not have to use a cheap adaptor. Point/case, why would I use a few dollar y-splitter on the end of Nordost blue heaven silver interconnects (nordost makes interconnects with the split or can reterminate your old regular ones)?

 

[ted99]

OK, that sounds like passive bi-amping to me.

I'd be curious to see how many Logan owners here have tried this with their multichannel amps...

I'm passive bi-amping my Ascent i's with Yamaha 120W receiver amps driving the bass connectors and Carver M1.5t driving the panel connectors. YPAO sorts out the levels. I hear a better sound in my HT, which I describe as "more clarity". Since I am not an audiophile reviewer, I'm not going to use any other adjectives. FYI: this is referred to as "passive bi-amping" because the Ascent i's crossover sections are still in the circuit, even when the bridging bars on the inputs are removed and a separate amplifier used for each pair of inputs. Full bi-amping would occur if the panels and cone sections were completely separated electrically when the bridging bars are removed.

First, I tried bi-wiring with the M1.5t (pair of wires from the Amp to the speaker with the bridging bars removed), but I did not hear any discernable difference.

 

[Mobs]

I just learned that I can use my 3808 to bi-amp my Vistas. I'll let you know if I hear a difference.

Anybody else bi-amp with the 3808?

I was bi-amping my Vistas with a Denon 4308. I have since made the 4308 my pre and now use a Sherbourne 2100A seven channel amp.

I too use a Y adapter from the pre-outs on the 4308 to seperate inputs on the Sherbourne to Bi Amp my Vistas.

The 4308 did a nice job but the Sherbourne does a better one and will hold me over for a while, at least I hope!

The Vista's have never been connected any other way than Bi Amp'd.

Later

 

[JohnLomnicki]

Mobs,

Thanks for the info. They are not bi-wired now, but will be when the new cables arrive. I'll post if there is a difference. The 3808 will be my choice for a while. I'm putting more money into speakers and room treatments right now.

Pictures on the member systems in the next few weeks.

 

[mrmike]

OK, I got a pair of vantages hooked to an Adcom GFA-7400 and a Lexicon MC-1.

Is that Vista or Vantage? Vantage in theory would not benefit from bi-amp.

 

[Reenberg]

I have tried to bi-amp my quest's ( have a post about it) with Tubes and sand ( tube on the top accuphase at the bottom), but newer succeeded to get a homogenizes sound picture so I gave up. But I'm still hooked on the idea ;-). Cables and feet’s on the other hand gave a huge step in the right direction, the feet’s was a surprise, but it really made the details shine.

 

[ScottGardner]

I'd be curious to see how many Logan owners here have tried this with their multichannel amps...

I was using a Sunfire TGA-5200 to passive biamp my Aerius I's. The Sunfire has built in capabilities to jumper the imputs just for this purpose. It also has two kinds of outputs for the main channels. The voltage outputs are standard solid state and the current outputs are said to have a tube like sound. I personally prefer the voltage outputs. The sound quality is definitely better that just bi-wireing. More effortless sounding.

I have now bypassed the speakers' internal crossovers and use a modified Behringer DCX 2496. In this setup the sound is vastly improved more open more detailed tighter low end. They really sparkle.

 

[JohnLomnicki]

They are not bi-wired now, but will be when the new cables arrive. I'll post if there is a difference. The 3808 will be my choice for a while.

The new speaker cables have arrived, I bi-wired the Vistas using the Denon 3808 and WOW, the woofers came to life. After the change, I ran the Audyssey auto config, manually tweaked, set the EQ to flat and entered an audio coma. I believe that is called "critical listening" around here.

I know I've said this again and again, and I'll write it here. Every time I go to make a change to the system it improves substantially. I keep expecting waiting to make a change and find out there is no impact, but it hasn't happened yet. Thanks for all the input.