Better Speaker Than CLX Art + Stereo BF212, What Might It Be?

[rower30]

This is harder than it seems. I retired in June, and decided to rotate my DynAudio C4 Signatures every other month with my CLX Art. I'd keep the subs in place and just change the X-over to the speaker in use. Here is the rub, I CAN NOT listen to the C4's for a month, as good as they are. Great bass impact, highs are different but plenty good and superb image stability. But the mid-range lacks the purity and correctness of the CLX art. The C4's get real good moving up or down from the mid-range, and the differences are enjoyable. But I just can't, for me, get over the differences in the mids that seems to really change the picture, a lot.

To my ear, the C4's can't get the music into the room near like the CLX. It isn't that the C4's don't have a great treble, they do, or a fast bass defined bass(major good bass here). The issue seems to be the SPEED of the middle frequencies that don't "open up" the sound stage. The CLX areren't as good in the bass propulsion but far from bad and I can tolerate the softer low-end. The treble is different, but still enjoyable on either speaker. But man oh man, the mid-range of the CLX just walk all over the C4's...and most any other speaker I've owned. From the mid bass on up they are just crazy good. The C4's went back into the closet, as good as they are. To me, the ability to get the music into the room and out of the speaker is SO much a requirement that the C4's can't compete even if they sound terrific where they work, mid to low bass and treble.

That presents the question, if you had a "super" CLX with fast and hard bass propulsion added to the already crazy good mids on up, what speaker is that? The heck with switching speakers around, just get ONE that is BOTH. I am not sure you can do that just yet. Some may argue the C4's are fine, too. Yes, I can understand that as I used them for a few years UNTIL I head the CLX. I do mean the CLX specifically, too, as the other ML speakers aren't, to my ear, as true to the human voice as the CLX.

I sure hope ML keeps the magic in the CLX with what ever replaces them. But, what do you all say about a "CLX killer" if there are any? For the price the CLX are just so darn good I wonder what you all think. remember, the mid-range has to STAY as is or no deal. Maybe I'm too picky but the mids on up have to be real good or it isn't hi-fi to me. Bass is great, but can be slightly off (like it isn't most of the time anyway) and not keep egging be to fix it. And, it is far from bad. Still, Philip Phillips isn't as convincing on the CLX as the C4's with the bass drive in music like that. The human voice and matching the room and opening up is too good to throw out for the bass, though. But maybe, just maybe, there is a speaker that can do that?

I'm not complaining about the CLX at all, for the money they are way underrated on what hi-end should be. But if we went even higher, where and what is that?

Galen Gareis

 

[sleepysurf]

How about the ML Neolith? You might want to follow user "whitecamaross's" endless thread at A'gon, now featuring this setup... https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7631#&gid=1&pid=1

 

[rower30]

How about the ML Neolith? You might want to follow user "whitecamaross's" endless thread at A'gon, now featuring this setup... https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7631#&gid=1&pid=1

Well,

Look at the SIZE, and price with no DSP for the bass. The room holds your bass hostage. I'm not sure why the neolith have no DSP built in. The missing bass link NEEDS DSP. THEN, you also need the proper mid bass propulsion, too. Not saying the Neolith doesn't have that.

I would be near zero likelihood of buying speakers with no DSP for the bass. Using the DSP on the stereo BF212 makes a HUGE difference even in a room that is 39 feet long. If the Neolith had DSP it would be a must listen.

Galen

 

[GW1800]

Well,

Look at the SIZE, and price with no DSP for the bass. The room holds your bass hostage. I'm not sure why the neolith have no DSP built in. The missing bass link NEEDS DSP. THEN, you also need the proper mid bass propulsion, too. Not saying the Neolith

I would be near zero likelihood of buying speakers with no DSP for the bass. Using the DSP on the stereo BF212 makes a HUGE difference even in a room that is 39 feet long. If the Neolith had DSP it would be a must listen.

Galen[/QUOTE

Totally agree with everything you said about CLX and DSP. Unfamiliar with the other speaker

 

[sleepysurf]

I believe the Neoliths have manual adjustments for "optimizing" the bass for the room, but I agree that DSP is obviously better. However, I'd be surprised if ML ever releases a "Neolith X" that incorporates the newer technology. I guess the Renaissance would be closest to what you want. You should audition a pair!

 

[rower30]

The Neolith are relatively new so I'm perplexed that they don't use the same DSP built into the BF-212 subs that is excellent. Jumpers on the Neolith for crude dB padding here or there isn't the ticket to bass in most rooms. And, even the new Persona 9H have DSP, yes?

Persona 9H
Hybrid Floorstanding Loudspeaker, with Four 8.5” Active Bass Drivers & Anthem Room Correction (ARC™)

I need to give those a listen, as the mids are reported to be really good. New dynamic driver speakers are really getting there, too. If I'm spending the money, I need DSP bass for sure. But after I spend time with the CLX, the less I'm really inclined to really try to replace them. These things are way underrated. They are not fussy at all like you expect of electrostatic speakers, play plenty loud, image like no other and the bass (with subs) is hardly terrible...but it does lack propulsion, or dynamics verses frequency reach. Can't fix a problem till you admit it is there.

Galen

 

[timm]

Hi Galen. I have not heard the CLX and by all accounts is a special speaker in the frequencies it produces. I have ML Odysseys and then got my magnepan 20.7s. The 20s go lower - have a great mid and special ribbon tweeter. A different sound than the ML for sure. It gets down to taste. I like the Maggie mids better because of its organic and textural nature. And they soundstage like a beast. I think the ML will be more detailed and clearer - but not by much. There used to be a pair in Evanston Illinois at Audio consultants. It would be a great shoot out. Thx Tim.

 

[rower30]

Hi Galen. I have not heard the CLX and by all accounts is a special speaker in the frequencies it produces. I have ML Odysseys and then got my magnepan 20.7s. The 20s go lower - have a great mid and special ribbon tweeter. A different sound than the ML for sure. It gets down to taste. I like the Maggie mids better because of its organic and textural nature. And they soundstage like a beast. I think the ML will be more detailed and clearer - but not by much. There used to be a pair in Evanston Illinois at Audio consultants. It would be a great shoot out. Thx Tim.

The Maggie's get a nice audience, but I'm not a fan of "organic" as the artifact overlays everything you play. I want neutrality such that if it is organic, like Tracy Chapman, it comes through back to the source. I DO NOT want it added for me. The CLX are as near to neutral as they come there. That is why I bought them.

The strike zone is a speaker you can MOVE, one has a reasonable footprint. It needs ARC type DSP so your room isn't holdng you hostage in every spot in the room. At least get the response right in ONE spot, anyway. Price can't be stupid as adding decent bass propulsion isn't impossible, keeping the mids clear and neutral is tougher though. And of course, proper dynamics that keep up with the music and reaiistic ensamble sized performances. More than that is not realistic for two channel music.

Panels don't need to be the objective at all. The CLX with subs were, and still are, the right decision for the money. But better is possible in the lower frequency propulsion, though. Modern dynamic drivers are catching panels clarity and neutrality, too. Panels still are better line source emitters and that really is an advantage. The CLX are a tough speaker to eclipse WHERE it works.

The Parasound 9H is in there on paper. It can't be the only contender.

Galen

 

[timm]

I’ve given up on all of the verbal descriptions of sound. . Organic to me means natural ...and I’ve just gotten to a point where I have to listen and let my ears make the decisions. If I like the sound - I like the speaker or electronics whatever. Determining what the source is supposed to sound like is fairly difficult as recording conditions can be in a padded room.. reflective room etc. then you have the room you are listening in - and that adds a whole nother can of worms.

I like planar bass if there is enough of it because ... I think it sounds more true to the source haha. To me cones sound great - but they sound more like a playback system - not the source. I bet those CLX sound treemendous with the monster subs. I wonder if ml would ever make big electrostatic bass panels.

Anyway. You are asking so I’ll ask. Have you heard big Wilsons? A very ‘clean’ speaker. Not my cup of tea but I could see someone easily liking them and describing them as true to source. I thought lower mids were missing. But that is a ‘taste’ thing of course. Long time ago - heard some Von Schweikert speakers - again seemed very true. Sonus Faber Stradivari - very romantic - I liked them but you could see them possibly getting in the way of truth. B&W 802 D3 - nice speaker easily the best b&w I ever heard. In the right room and electronics they could work out nicely but doubt if they could compete with your CLX setup.

 

[DDzCLX]

I really enjoy my CLX with a pair of Descent i c/w CLX filters. A friend has CLX ART and uses a pair of JL Audio g213 (I don't think he has taken the time to do room equalization yet). The JL's have punch you can feel in your chest (and bank account)

 

[RUR]

The JL's have punch you can feel in your chest (and bank account)

Some of the craziest LF I've ever heard was in a way into six figures setup using big Wilsons with two Gotham subs. I thought my internal organs were being rearranged.

 

[JonFo]

It sounds like what you are seeking is more mid-bass punch with the electrostats, and that is a unicorn I've been chasing for a long time.

My fix for that was to build some nearfield mid-bass modules and to fine-tune them to the rest of the rig with my speaker processor. Time alignment and bandpass filtering are critical to getting right for optimum results. Here's the thread where I describe them: http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?17781-MBM-Deployment

I can say my rig now rocks very hard if asked to, any type of music plays well now, and on movies, it can knock you over. Watching MI: Fallout on the 5.4.4 rig left me breathless the other day.
But it is ever so clean, super low-distortion, even at high levels, and in a room with enough treatment to manage the energy.


For the CLX, you are already lightening the load with the BF212, but good solid mid-bass might require some additional focused, dynamic driver support. What crossover point are you using?

Over the years I've though about going from the Monoliths to a CLX, but only if I can mount them in an infinite baffle wall to totally isolate the rear wave. That dipole cancelation of open-bafle ESLs is what kills the 'punch' in the 60 to 300Hz range, as the panels themselves move a good bit of air. Especially that CLX bass panel. I'd love to grab a bunch of those and try some monopole configs.

 

[rower30]

It sounds like what you are seeking is more mid-bass punch with the electrostats, and that is a unicorn I've been chasing for a long time.

My fix for that was to build some nearfield mid-bass modules and to fine-tune them to the rest of the rig with my speaker processor. Time alignment and bandpass filtering are critical to getting right for optimum results. Here's the thread where I describe them: http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?17781-MBM-Deployment

I can say my rig now rocks very hard if asked to, any type of music plays well now, and on movies, it can knock you over. Watching MI: Fallout on the 5.4.4 rig left me breathless the other day.
But it is ever so clean, super low-distortion, even at high levels, and in a room with enough treatment to manage the energy.


For the CLX, you are already lightening the load with the BF212, but good solid mid-bass might require some additional focused, dynamic driver support. What crossover point are you using?

Over the years I've though about going from the Monoliths to a CLX, but only if I can mount them in an infinite baffle wall to totally isolate the rear wave. That dipole cancelation of open-bafle ESLs is what kills the 'punch' in the 60 to 300Hz range, as the panels themselves move a good bit of air. Especially that CLX bass panel. I'd love to grab a bunch of those and try some monopole configs.

That open back is part of what makes the CLX so much more part of the real room. But yes, the side panels are there to limit the bass cancellation. As far as neutrality, systems that have a wider variation across a a large sample of music tend to be more neutral. If you add a house sound those differences collapse. I agree it is hard to describe sound as source material is so varied, but you still can determine neutrality if you listen across a large sample set.

I use the bass roll-off downloaded to not the BF-212 subs. As the bass panels go south below 50 Hz the subs are likely at 45Hz or so

The CLX are great, but discussing better is part of this hobby.

Galen

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Some of the craziest LF I've ever heard was in a way into six figures setup using big Wilsons with two Gotham subs. I thought my internal organs were being rearranged.

I had that experience the other day watching a movie when my new monster subwoofer gave me the impression it was going to shake the walls down. They weren't kidding when they said it goes down to 10Hz.

I'd heard it go low before, but I haven't been using it for very long and it actually surprised me. It was more of a "Holy Sh#t!" than a Wow.

 

[rower30]

I had that experience the other day watching a movie when my new monster subwoofer gave me the impression it was going to shake the walls down. They weren't kidding when they said it goes down to 10Hz.

I'd heard it go low before, but I haven't been using it for very long and it actually surprised me. It was more of a "Holy Sh#t!" than a Wow.

The reach down low is fine with the stereo BF212 subs going to less than 20 Hz. I have a 39 foot long room so the room can truly go low. No issues there. The issue is the Pratt needs to extend up into the mid bass. A lot of bass power is not USUALLY located super low in most sources if any super low at all. Subs matter though, as when there is indeed good low frequency content it adds dimension to the music.

Rattling the ventilation ducts is sure fun, the tank scene in Saving Private Ryan as an example. But for music the requirements reach well up higher.

Galen

 

[RUR]

I had that experience the other day watching a movie when my new monster subwoofer gave me the impression it was going to shake the walls down. They weren't kidding when they said it goes down to 10Hz.

I'd heard it go low before, but I haven't been using it for very long and it actually surprised me. It was more of a "Holy Sh#t!" than a Wow.

Yeah, I had the same effect when I was running a Seaton SubMersive in my system, but the reality is that the minimum for sensing 10Hz is ~100dB, whereas most of the gut punch effects reside in the 40-50Hz region. Turned out I hated the room pressurization intrinsic to monopole subs and ended up selling the Seaton and building my own 2x12", servo-controlled, M-frame dipole subs. Zero pressurization and IMHO a much better match for my dipole mains, even though they run out of gas around 20Hz.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Yeah, I had the same effect when I was running a Seaton SubMersive in my system, but the reality is that the minimum for sensing 10Hz is ~100dB, whereas most of the gut punch effects reside in the 40-50Hz region. Turned out I hated the room pressurization intrinsic to monopole subs and ended up selling the Seaton and building my own 2x12", servo-controlled, M-frame dipole subs. Zero pressurization and IMHO a much better match for my dipole mains, even though they run out of gas around 20Hz.

Interesting.

Everything hanging on the walls was vibrating and just about everything that wasn't bolted down was shaking. It was a bit weird. Currently I have all 3 baffles out which makes it more efficient but is actually supposed to raise the low end peak from 16Hz to 20Hz. With all baffles in place it is much closer to a sealed subwoofer. It's obviously more efficient when it breathes but I understood it should be more accurate in sealed mode. So far it "seems" like a better match for music where it is. I should probably see what is actually happening in room eq, but I haven't bothered to set it up yet.

 

[timm]

What I find really cool is when you don’t really hear that much but crap is just rattling. Haha.

 

[JonFo]

For those looking to get more 'punch' beside the MBMs in the 45 to 140Hz range, I can assure you that a line-array of small (7") woofers like I use on the SL3XC center can make a big difference from 350Hz on down.
At higher volume levels, it totally keeps up with the ESL panels. I think one of the challenges hybrid ESL designs have is that the power-curve is not consistent across the entire frequency range. I know the unmodified Monolith had that in spades, and even my Active X-O modified woofer Monoliths still suffer from that when pushed north of 92dB average SPL (which is already pretty loud).

I notice the fuller sound of my center compared to the Monoliths on some of Steven Wilsons multichannel audio recordings, as bass guitar and any drums that land in the center has more 'weight' at high volumes. Makes sense, as there are six 7" drivers in a line-array against one 12" woofer.

At some point, I'll build mid-bass/woofer line-arrays for the Monoliths and the rears, but will wait until I can afford a Trinnov Altitude 32 so I can do 100% of the crossovers, room correction and speaker remapping in a single box. I'm kind of done with the huge complexity of my system as far as box count. The config in the Trinnov will require a degree to set up adjust, so not like it's simpler from that perspective, with bi-amped 7 bed channels (21ch just there) 4 subs and 4 overheads, a total of 29 channels for speakers, plus one for the tactile transducer, we've used up 30 of the 32 channels the Altitude can handle.

One of the features I hope is added to the Trinnov is dynamic power curve mapping, as most speakers do not have a consistent power-curve, and hybrid ESL could really benefit from that.

 

[RUR]

One of the features I hope is added to the Trinnov is dynamic power curve mapping, as most speakers do not have a consistent power-curve, and hybrid ESL could really benefit from that.

Hey Jonathan,

The place to "make your case" is in the AVS Altitude thread. It's monitored every day by HQ in France looking for issues and suggestions.