BAT integrated vs pricier separates?

[jk319]

I was going to start this as a PM to twich54 since I discovered he had Rogue M-150s. Then I decided to throw this out to everyone instead. And sorry about the long post, Im just one those guys with a mind that is over all the place... just my nature.

Sooo, I was just at my dealer's today, talking about the possible purchase of some of his used electronics. For about $3k, I can get his BAT 300 SE, with extremely low hours, even though he's had it for a good while. Next to it was the inferior vk-3i, and of course I asked him for his opinion on the BAT integrated vs this pre + affordable amp. Well, he doesn't really get into affordable amps, but tells me to take his M-150 Rogue monoblocks with the 3i for $5.3k. Well, to be honest, its a LOT more than I was intending to go for. OTOH, he says it would be an awesome system. The monoblocks are part of his reference system, matched with a BAT 51.

I have no predisposition towards SS or tubes, and can easily go either way. However, my dealer believes the sound of tube amps is unrivaled. (No flame war please, I am sure this has been beaten to death, and moreover, I think I'd be like twich and be really happy with either. Its an upgrade no matter, I'd believe).

It seems just a wee bit strange that these monoblocks + older "entry" BAT pre is to be superior compared to the "better" preamp section of the 300 SE, even if the SS amp section is not as robust. I say this because a little while ago I was thinking of adding a 2-ch pre before the amp, since several people thought that this would be the more prudent upgrade order. This includes my dealer when asked last year! Well, do any of you have thoughts on this for the $2.3k increase in price? (BTW, I currently have refurbished NADs, t-163 and t-973, but Im on the hunt now as I am hoping to split off the 2-ch system. I guess I would try to talk him down a bit, since 'gon prices look so good, or I could still just buy directly from the 'gon).

Then I noticed the Stereo 90 amp, and being so much more affordable, I asked why not this? Dealer thinks the difference in SQ is great enough that I should/have to go with the M-150s. See, I don't know enough about this stuff to know how much is "hot air" vs real world differences. He speaks of cross-talk and separate supplies, and I ask, "But we are talking about extremely subtle things aren't we? Is it really worth 2k more in msrp?". It appears he does! I am aware selling is essential to his livelihood, but I do put decent trust in him. He seems to have a balanced viewpoint on things, and I have the impression that he does look out for me in some regard.

I see on Audiogon the M-150s are going for 2.7k. I also noticed the M-120s going for much less at $1.4k. Do any of you have knowledge about the differences between the two? Either any certain specs or differences in real-world effectiveness?

Thanks so much for any insight you might have. I am very much leaning towards the integrated because of lower cost, but the devil on my shoulder tells me that I want tube power. And heck, my only source, the cdp, is tubed, I am definitely getting a tubed preamp... why not the amp too?

-JK319

 

[Rich]

You don't tell us what speakers you plan to drive with this pre/amp combination. That would be useful info. for giving you advice. I think the BAT integrated would be a fine combination. It would combine a wonderful tube preamp stage with a great solid state amplification stage and have plenty of power particularly for the newer models, like the vantage and summit. If you want to stick to your budget, that sounds like a great deal and I think you will be very pleased with it. No reason the dealer shouldn't let you take it home to audition so you can decide for yourself.

If you really want to spend the extra bucks and get the vk-3i and the Rogue monoblocs, I am sure you will enjoy that too. And later on, you can just upgrade the preamp when you are ready for something better. Will that combo be $2k better than the integrated? I seriously doubt it. But it might be better. Then again, it might be worse. Ultimately, it is up to your ears to decide which works best with your system, so you might want to see about arranging some auditions.

By the way, don't trust your dealer too much. He may be the nicest guy in the world, but he still has his own pocketbook in mind every time he makes a recommendation to you. He will put his financial interests ahead of yours every time. That is how he makes a living. Never forget that.

 

[jk319]

Thank you very much for your advice, Rich I will now definitely ask if I can test it out before purchase, when the time comes. I knew at least I could put that purchase to something else if unsatisfied, but I did forget about this. Maybe I'm too easy of a customer. Thanks Rich. Oh almost forgot, I have Summits. They in fact were his old demo's.

 

[aliveatfive]

I'll confuse you some more! I had a BAT VK51SE, bought as a dealer demo, for several years. I enjoyed the listening pleasure that it provided. The amp I was using was an ARC VT 100 III. I replaced the amp with an ARC REF 110 and found that the new amp made quite a positive change. More recordings became easier to listen to. Soundstaging became much better. The sound, in general, was still highly detailed, but more relaxed.

I decided that I would audition an ARC REF 3 at my dealer. When I heard the sound of that preamp, I knew the BAT would be on its way out when I had the chance to replace it. The new REF was a revelation.

What I'm getting at is that you should expand your horizons. If you audition other brands, you will be exposed to differences in sound. You might well prefer the BAT, but you should give yourself the opportunity to hear the contenders.

 

[jk319]

Thank you for the reply. Good input, I'll see who is around with that stuff. If I am really lucky, they would carry ML too, but that seems unlikely. I know all of the authorized dealers of ML in the area, and I don't remember any of them carrying ARC. One other does carry Mac, but Im not too crazy about that store... Cheers aliveatfive.

 

[jk319]

Well, alive, I think ARC is a bit out my reach. Heh. Man, it's fun to waste time window browsing on the net for audio gear, lol. Regarding BAT, I must say that its my favorite looking stuff compared to some of the usual competition. I also like the clean look of an integrated, but the devil in me still enjoys the take-no-prisoners look of monoblocks. I guess separates is always a good thing for upgrade flexibility, but one has to pay for that...

I saw an interesting possible BAT combination on the gon this morning. VK-5i for 2.1k and VK-55 amp for $2120, or 4.2k+ total before negotiation. Lalalala...

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1207143363
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1207148447

 

[jk319]

Question for those who are quite familiar with BAT.

Assuming that whatever you bought would never get sent in for upgrades, would you choose a lower version that is "SE" that is "super-tubed", replete with paper in oil caps, OR, a better model/separates w/o these improvements?

I know there might be variation of responses depending on the models considered, and also I can't expect anyone to have heard everything. However, I am curious if anyone at all does have an opinion on this matter. If it helps, Im not looking to spend a great amount.

Thank you very much for reading.

-John

 

[audiojs]

Bat-Rogue

I have a bat 3ix and rogue m150 mono-block combo they work very well together. tried several other preamps

currently i am using the 3ix with bryston 4bsst
audio research cd3 mk ii

synergistic speaker cables or nordost super flatline
audioquest colorado balanced interconnects
shunyata taipan helix alpha power cords
shunyata hydra 6
martin logan sl3
i used this same combination with my magnapan 1,6qr
occasionally i change to the rogue m 150

 

[David Matz]

Question for those who are quite familiar with BAT.

Assuming that whatever you bought would never get sent in for upgrades, would you choose a lower version that is "SE" that is "super-tubed", replete with paper in oil caps, OR, a better model/separates w/o these improvements?

I know there might be variation of responses depending on the models considered, and also I can't expect anyone to have heard everything. However, I am curious if anyone at all does have an opinion on this matter. If it helps, Im not looking to spend a great amount.

Thank you very much for reading.

-John

The answer to most sophisticated things is - it depends. What models are you comparing?

VK 55 is a really nice amp. In an ideal world, I would own it as a second amp. I do prefer a lot of power with my Vantages. The VK 55 is a very nice, warm sound, though. The VK 55 SE just came out, and it is supposed to be a fairly minor improvement over VK 55. However, I am not sure if the improvement is in the right direction. If you like the "tube sound", I would stop right there in your search for an amp and get the VK 55.

I did audition the VK 75 SE for a month. It is very good, and much more neutral and transparent than the VK 55. The VK 75 SE is supposed to be night and day better than the plain VK 75. However, I think the VK 55 sounds much better than the VK 75 SE because of its euphonic distortions. If you want more neutrality and power, go for big solid state.

 

[aliveatfive]

Good question. I think I can answer it because the BAT preamp that I used began life as a VK50. It was sent to the factory (by me) and converted into a VK51SE. The 6h30 tube which is used in most SE upgrades is a revelation. It makes the preamp more neutral and less "tubey" sounding. Also, bass reaches lower because of the additional capacitance. The SE version is quite superior to "plain vanilla."

 

[jk319]

audiojs, David, and Alive, thank you all so much for your input. It is greatly valued. I have some mulling over to do, per usual.