ARC In Speakers...

[user 49612]

2 questions for everyone:

In main speakers (15As) is it better to run ARC together or separate? I currently feel together their sum may leave one speaker severely lacking, and should something only be in that channel it will show vs ARC correcting just that speaker. At the same time if something is summed will that mean the response is not as good as the matching speaker isnt aware it needs to pick up the slack?

Second, I have found adding a delay (not arbitrary or uniform) to each of my 3 BF212 subs has immensely helped their integration together and with my speakers. But I always use actual measurements for my mains (15As now)...should these speakers be delayed as well since they basically have a 212 bottom?? This is part of a HT with C34 center and ML surrounds. Curious if anyone has experience or thoughts to share.

Thanks in advance

 

[sleepysurf]

Not sure what you mean with together vs. separate? If you use the ethernet-type cable to temporarily connect both 15A's when running ARC-Genesis, it still measures (and corrects) each speaker independently. Connecting them just simplifies the procedure, but has no bearing on outcome.

Re adding delay to your subs (relative to the 15A's), that's called "time aligning" and is usually very beneficial. How are you actually measuring and adding appropriate delay? MiniDSP, or equivalent? The ultimate effect depends on where the subs are actually located relative to the mains. However, even if adjacent to the mains, there could still be a delay in the subs signal processing, which can be made worse depending upon the subs phase settings.

Complicating matters further, downloading and installing the 15A specific crossover filters for your BF212's can also have a significant effect.

I've been dealing with these multiple permutations (aka "tweaking options") for many years, and think I've gotten pretty close to optimizing the mains +sub(s) setup for my room. Of course, every room, acoustics, and setup is different.

 

[user 49612]

Not sure what you mean with together vs. separate? If you use the ethernet-type cable to temporarily connect both 15A's when running ARC-Genesis, it still measures (and corrects) each speaker independently. Connecting them just simplifies the procedure, but has no bearing on outcome.

Re adding delay to your subs (relative to the 15A's), that's called "time aligning" and is usually very beneficial. How are you actually measuring and adding appropriate delay? MiniDSP, or equivalent? The ultimate effect depends on where the subs are actually located relative to the mains. However, even if adjacent to the mains, there could still be a delay in the subs signal processing, which can be made worse depending upon the subs phase settings.

Complicating matters further, downloading and installing the 15A specific crossover filters for your BF212's can also have a significant effect.

I've been dealing with these multiple permutations (aka "tweaking options") for many years, and think I've gotten pretty close to optimizing the mains +sub(s) setup for my room. Of course, every room, acoustics, and setup is different.

Thanks man you answered my first question! Did not realize even connected they are seperate.

Time allign: MX180. I am not a 2 ch guy and can set delays in the processor. But my question is, do the main speakers also need a delay since they have ARC and dsp just like the subs? IE the surrounds do not, and they like my mains and center are just actual measurements. Maybe LCR would benefit from time alignment?

 

[sleepysurf]

Time allign: MX180. I am not a 2 ch guy and can set delays in the processor. But my question is, do the main speakers also need a delay since they have ARC and dsp just like the subs? IE the surrounds do not, and they like my mains and center are just actual measurements. Maybe LCR would benefit from time alignment?

OK, so you're using a McIntosh MX180 processor with Lyngdorf RoomPerfect. I'm not really familiar with the Lyngdorf approach, but I'm sure it's good.

I'd first run ARC Genesis for your 15A's, and each sub (or daisy-chained combinations, if any), then let RoomPerfect do it's thing. I presume RoomPerfect (like most room correction software) will use one of the 15A's as the "reference point" and then time-align everything to it (including the other 15A, if necessary). If you don't like the result, you can turn off ARC in the 15A's and subs, and run RoomPerfect again, so you're only getting one DSP correction applied.

BTW, given your setup, I'd certainly recommend listening to some good 2 channel tracks. You might find yourself sucked into the audiophile "rabbit hole" yet!

 

[user 49612]

Is there a way you know of for me to set time alignment without Room Perfect? I try to give RP the best chance to succeed before running it.

And noted lol, but 3 BF212s with Full range 15As makes my doors and windows scream for dear life with Organs, so maybe I'll stick to movies for now....not that those are any better lol

 

[sleepysurf]

Running ARC Genesis for your ML mains and subs first will optimize their in-room frequency response. Subsequently, RoomPerfect should have less work to do for those, and will add time alignment/phase corrections for the entire system. However, after my brief perusal of McIntosh's implemention of Room Perfect (owners manual), it appears you need to manually enter each speakers distance to the "Focus Location." Subs, in particular, may have an "acoustic distance" that differs from their physical distance, but I don't know if this version of RoomPerfect corrects for that.

You could, I suppose, use something like MiniDSP with REW first, but why add complexity.

 

[ejspain]

Is there a way you know of for me to set time alignment without Room Perfect? I try to give RP the best chance to succeed before running it.

And noted lol, but 3 BF212s with Full range 15As makes my doors and windows scream for dear life with Organs, so maybe I'll stick to movies for now....not that those are any better lol

That's an awful amount of bass...even for movies...BUT HEY...it's all about what sounds good to your ears. I run my 11As full range for 2 channel music and I'm blown away every time with the amount of bass those 2 little 8's can produce. I truly believe adding the Parasound A31 has a lot to do with it. LOVE THIS AMP.

 

[user 49612]

That's an awful amount of bass...even for movies...BUT HEY...it's all about what sounds good to your ears. I run my 11As full range for 2 channel music and I'm blown away every time with the amount of bass those 2 little 8's can produce. I truly believe adding the Parasound A31 has a lot to do with it. LOVE THIS AMP.

Would you call me crazy if I said I want 3 more BF212s to stack on my first three?

 

[ttocs]

Would you call me crazy if I said I want 3 more BF212s to stack on my first three?

I would not!

 

[Robert D]

Would you call me crazy if I said I want 3 more BF212s to stack on my first three?

That's twelve 12 inch woofers all pushing mega bass! I'd love to hear it.

 

[Leporello]

Would you call me crazy if I said I want 3 more BF212s to stack on my first three?

Yes!

You're already in overkill territory with the volume of air moved. You're not going to achieve much more in the area of uniformity, if you stack them. If you really feel the need for 6 subs, try to distribute them throughout the room. Possibly ARC can deal with them, though I'm not so sure. I'm still at the point of maybe affording one BF210 in the not too distant future.

 

[Robert D]

The cost of the bf210 has really gone through the roof in the last year or two. If I remember right, I paid about $2500 for mine through Shawn on here. Price was much better before this inflation sunk in.

 

[ejspain]

Would you call me crazy if I said I want 3 more BF212s to stack on my first three?

Not crazy at all...if that's what shakes your leg make it happen.

 

[ttocs]

More subs, whether stacked or not, is not for "more bass" exactly. It's for better bass.

The first goal is to be able to properly pressurize the room.
Next is to smooth out the peaks/nulls.
After that it's just more refinement.

In my case, 3 subs can do ok pressurizing the room, but they struggle at high SPL. With 3 subs stacked on top of the first 3, it adds +6.4dB SPL. So now, with just the subs, they will measure easily at 105dB when looking at 31.5Hz (Dolby spec), but 20Hz sags noticeably, which means they're at their limit for my 6000 cubic foot space. With movies the subs really aren't at that high a level, but they're supposed to be competent at that level according to Dolby at a minimum of 31.5Hz. More subs would be welcome. For me, it's all about headroom with less stress on each sub.

 

[Robert D]

More subs, whether stacked or not, is not for "more bass" exactly. It's for better bass.

The first goal is to be able to properly pressurize the room.
Next is to smooth out the peaks/nulls.
After that it's just more refinement.

In my case, 3 subs can do ok pressurizing the room, but they struggle at high SPL. With 3 subs stacked on top of the first 3, it adds +6.4dB SPL. So now, with just the subs, they will measure easily at 105dB when looking at 31.5Hz (Dolby spec), but 20Hz sags noticeably, which means they're at their limit for my 6000 cubic foot space. With movies the subs really aren't at that high a level, but they're supposed to be competent at that level according to Dolby at a minimum of 31.5Hz. More subs would be welcome. For me, it's all about headroom with less stress on each sub.

I wonder, since each sub is being pushed much less when you have multiples, do you think that each sub lasts longer than if it were being used as the only sub? Less stress on each.

 

[Leporello]

I wonder, since each sub is being pushed much less when you have multiples, do you think that each sub lasts longer than if it were being used as the only sub? Less stress on each.

Are subs really that prone to "wearing out"? I don't hear much about them dying, other than failure to please for want of a bigger, better model. The most common failure mode would probably be the internal amps, but even that I don't hear much about. If the surrounds are going to rot, I don't think that would depend on how close to their maximum excursion they typically went.

Of course, my sub demands are very modest. As long as I can approximate the pipe organ down the street I hear with some regularity I'm a happy camper. Action movies can be fun, but not a major part of my movie diet.

 

[Robert D]

Are subs really that prone to "wearing out"? I don't hear much about them dying, other than failure to please for want of a bigger, better model. The most common failure mode would probably be the internal amps, but even that I don't hear much about. If the surrounds are going to rot, I don't think that would depend on how close to their maximum excursion they typically went.

Of course, my sub demands are very modest. As long as I can approximate the pipe organ down the street I hear with some regularity I'm a happy camper. Action movies can be fun, but not a major part of my movie diet.

My Depth i developed a problem, most likely the amp. My other 3 subs before that all failed too. To me, subs are junk. In my case it's always the amp that fails.

One sub was a Carver. The amp went out, and I was able to mail it back to his business and they refurbished it to like new condition. It lasted a good length of time after that but still went out. I never have had any of my subs turned up past halfway either.

I think an unpowered sub like was used in the past might last a long long time!

 

[ejspain]

My Depth i developed a problem, most likely the amp. My other 3 subs before that all failed too. To me, subs are junk. In my case it's always the amp that fails.

One sub was a Carver. The amp went out, and I was able to mail it back to his business and they refurbished it to like new condition. It lasted a good length of time after that but still went out. I never have had any of my subs turned up past halfway either.

I think an unpowered sub like was used in the past might last a long long time!

Dang sorry to hear that. Think I'd be a little pissed if the amps went out in my subs.

 

[Robert D]

Dang sorry to hear that. Think I'd be a little pissed if the amps went out in my subs.

It lasted a good while. I'm used to it, like I said because of my prior experience with every other sub I've owned. I fully expect the amp on my bf210 to go out someday.

The depth i still plays fine most of the time. Every once in awhile it will start making a very loud popping noise. It's totally random and happens even when there is no signal coming in. I have it hooked up in my basement secondary home theater, where my old equipment goes. We still use it there and my kids haven't complained yet. It's used mostly for pc and Nintendo games down there.

 

[Robert D]

The Marantz receiver down there has something wrong with it too. The left and right channels go out randomly! A long time ago I learned that everything breaks down eventually. Right now I have to go to Cleveland Clinic for surgery. The right ventricular lead for my defibrillator has developed a flaw and is making artifacts. My defibrillator/pacemaker may not work properly all of the time now. The surgeon needs to pull out the old wire and replace with a new one. It lasted 15 years. It's just reality that tech breaks down. The higher the tech, the more there is to break down! The chances of death for my surgery is around 2%. It is what it is. So when a sub breaks down,it's not a huge deal to me now. This lead fracture sucks bad.