Apple Music Lossless Hi-Res Audio Coming Soon

[Robert D]

Try putting it behind a VPN then!

I've never used a VPN,but might look into it.

https://blog.flashrouters.com/2021/07/12/tired-netflix-throttling-verizon-fios-isps/
Not sure how to go about it. I think I have a VPN service with my paid Kaspersky account.


https://usa.kaspersky.com/vpn-secure-connection
Would running it on my pc set up my whole network to run off it, or would it only work for that one pc?

Is there a way I can check to see if Netflix is being throttled?

 

[Robert D]

https://piunikaweb.com/2020/02/10/netflix-dolby-atmos-streaming-apple-tv-4k/

 

[Robert D]

https://www.avforums.com/threads/netflix-atmos-issues-and-problems.2253575/
7.pages run up to now!

 

[amey01]

I've never used a VPN,but might look into it.

https://blog.flashrouters.com/2021/07/12/tired-netflix-throttling-verizon-fios-isps/
Not sure how to go about it. I think I have a VPN service with my paid Kaspersky account.


https://usa.kaspersky.com/vpn-secure-connection
Would running it on my pc set up my whole network to run off it, or would it only work for that one pc?

Is there a way I can check to see if Netflix is being throttled?

I haven't had the issues you are having, so haven't really gone into it. But given you don't know what the issue is, you've got to try a few things to isolate it.

I use NordVPN, and it has an Android app for my TV box - but in yet another example of Apple's infuriating restrictions, setting it up for an AppleTV is a little harder - I think you have to use SmartDNS or similar; or through your router.

But I only suggested it as a way to avoid the throttling (if it is there).

You could also try Netflix on a PC or other device......are the same issues present? That will tell you if it is the Apple TV at fault, or your ISP/throttling.

I think you can test the connection speed through fast.com.......that is a Netflix owned speed tester which is designed to check for Netflix usability specifically. You probably can't do that on an AppleTV either But any PC connected to the same network should prove the same result.

 

[JonFo]

The issue is definitely software related (it doesn't happen on any other apps) and seems linked with the way the Netflix app buffers variable bitrate audio / outputs Atmos with the Dolby MAT 2.0 container. The problem is more apparent when the network connection conducting the stream is flakey (ie it will happen more rapidly on wifi vs wired; or if you artificially throttle the ATV's bandwidth in your router).

From: Netflix Atmos Issues and Problems.

And then further in the thread, there is confirmation that if the ISP is throttling, or the connection is 'flakey' (which I interpret as having bufferbloat), the Atmos audio problems surface.

I know my ISP is putting some kind of cap on Netflix traffic, as my Fast.com test (which use the Netflix servers and CDN) results are below 200Mbps consistently for a couple of months. I was getting a full gigabit on that test pre-pandemic.
Tests on DSLreports.com and against my own netperf servers (one of the perks of running a networking company) show a full 800Mbps+ with A Bufferbloat grades.

Now, the reason I have good results is that my line has effective traffic management in the router, part of which is optimized upstream flow handling. Yes, streaming is primarily a downstream flow, using up to 25Mbps worth of capacity for a 4K UHD movie, but the upstream is critical to the consistency of the stream. Pretty much all flows require acknowledgment (ACK) of received data, so for every n packets down, an ACK is sent back to confirm receipt. This ACK is used by the server to determine the pace of the link. If the ACKs are erratic, the server assumes the line can not sustain the current rate and downshifts the rate.

It is during these downshifts (and upshifts) of pace that the Netflix App on the ATV4K gets confused and we get the wrong audio issue.

My traffic management does two things with ACKs:
1- They never wait, they are high priority in the queues
2- On highly asymmetric lines (gig down, 35Mbps up) it performs ACK-thining, throwing away redundant ACKs

Traffic management ensures that both directions have sub-50ms latencies (typically 24ms avg on my line), and small, frequent packets are prioritized (control packets, syncs, acks, VoIP, etc.), also respects DSCP and uses ECN (Explicit Congestion Notification).

So in my case, the Netflix server sees a very consistent rate of exchange on flows and thus does not make changes in sending rate/resolution. Thus, I do not (or rarely) experience the issue.

My bet is that if you measure your line (using a wired connection to the router) and have a Bufferbloat score of C or worse, that's part of your issue. You can check that here: IQrouter

 

[JonFo]

Last night while watching Virgin River the sound would drop out once or twice in each 50 minute episode. Just pausing or stopping the show restores normal sound.

Definitely a symptom of inconsistent Internet flows as noted above.
We just watched the latest season of that show and had no issues.

I haven't contacted Apple yet again a second time. I suppose the next step would be requesting a replacement for the Apple device. Maybe I got a bad one? Weird that it can go a day or more and not have an issue. It averages about 1 occurrence in an hour, otherwise it sounds great.

It's a Netflix App problem, nothing Apple can do about it, as the AplleTV+ and Disney+ apps can stream 4K DV/Atmos with no issues.

I'm wondering if my internet provider is somehow throttling my Netflix stream and that's the issue. I've read that some companies do that. I can see them doing it to Netflix and not the others because Netflix is more popular.

I bet they are. Run a fast.com vs a DSLreports.com or speedtest.net and my bet is the fast.com will be the slowest.
And that the DSLreports.com will report a bufferbloat grade of C or worse.

Once you have enough capacity for a stream (i.e. 25Mbps), more is not going to help. What's needed is consistency which is achieved by traffic management delivering low latencies under load.

 

[Robert D]

I haven't had the issues you are having, so haven't really gone into it. But given you don't know what the issue is, you've got to try a few things to isolate it.

I use NordVPN, and it has an Android app for my TV box - but in yet another example of Apple's infuriating restrictions, setting it up for an AppleTV is a little harder - I think you have to use SmartDNS or similar; or through your router.

But I only suggested it as a way to avoid the throttling (if it is there).

You could also try Netflix on a PC or other device......are the same issues present? That will tell you if it is the Apple TV at fault, or your ISP/throttling.

I think you can test the connection speed through fast.com.......that is a Netflix owned speed tester which is designed to check for Netflix usability specifically. You probably can't do that on an AppleTV either But any PC connected to the same network should prove the same result.

I never watch TV on the pc, but should probably try it. My pc isn't hooked up to an atmos receiver though, so I can't do that. No way am I moving stuff around to test. That would be a terrible job.

Watched 3 hours of dolby 5.1 last night on Netflix and no problems. It's only Atmos.

 

[Robert D]

From: Netflix Atmos Issues and Problems.

And then further in the thread, there is confirmation that if the ISP is throttling, or the connection is 'flakey' (which I interpret as having bufferbloat), the Atmos audio problems surface.

I know my ISP is putting some kind of cap on Netflix traffic, as my Fast.com test (which use the Netflix servers and CDN) results are below 200Mbps consistently for a couple of months. I was getting a full gigabit on that test pre-pandemic.
Tests on DSLreports.com and against my own netperf servers (one of the perks of running a networking company) show a full 800Mbps+ with A Bufferbloat grades.

Now, the reason I have good results is that my line has effective traffic management in the router, part of which is optimized upstream flow handling. Yes, streaming is primarily a downstream flow, using up to 25Mbps worth of capacity for a 4K UHD movie, but the upstream is critical to the consistency of the stream. Pretty much all flows require acknowledgment (ACK) of received data, so for every n packets down, an ACK is sent back to confirm receipt. This ACK is used by the server to determine the pace of the link. If the ACKs are erratic, the server assumes the line can not sustain the current rate and downshifts the rate.

It is during these downshifts (and upshifts) of pace that the Netflix App on the ATV4K gets confused and we get the wrong audio issue.

My traffic management does two things with ACKs:
1- They never wait, they are high priority in the queues
2- On highly asymmetric lines (gig down, 35Mbps up) it performs ACK-thining, throwing away redundant ACKs

Traffic management ensures that both directions have sub-50ms latencies (typically 24ms avg on my line), and small, frequent packets are prioritized (control packets, syncs, acks, VoIP, etc.), also respects DSCP and uses ECN (Explicit Congestion Notification).

So in my case, the Netflix server sees a very consistent rate of exchange on flows and thus does not make changes in sending rate/resolution. Thus, I do not (or rarely) experience the issue.

My bet is that if you measure your line (using a wired connection to the router) and have a Bufferbloat score of C or worse, that's part of your issue. You can check that here: IQrouter

Thanks, I will look into that. I'm not very knowledgeable about such things.

My hardware is pretty simple. Just the modem supplied by my ISP, and an Amplifi wireless router. I only use wifi for phones, tablets, and lap tops.

I will try to measure my bufferbloat. If it's high, not sure how I'd correct it.

One weird thing, in the past I'd have speed issues with a different ISP, and then the video quality would always go to hell. Now all that happens is the audio problems. Audio problems and getting crystal clear Dolby Vision!

Can watch as much dolby 5.1 as I want and no sound issues. Atmos fine on every service but Netflix. Could an extra 6 channels of sound be that more demanding?

 

[Robert D]

Definitely a symptom of inconsistent Internet flows as noted above.
We just watched the latest season of that show and had no issues.



It's a Netflix App problem, nothing Apple can do about it, as the AplleTV+ and Disney+ apps can stream 4K DV/Atmos with no issues.



I bet they are. Run a fast.com vs a DSLreports.com or speedtest.net and my bet is the fast.com will be the slowest.
And that the DSLreports.com will report a bufferbloat grade of C or worse.

Once you have enough capacity for a stream (i.e. 25Mbps), more is not going to help. What's needed is consistency which is achieved by traffic management delivering low latencies under load.

Wow, streaming dolby vision with dolby atmos at the same time only requires 25 mbps? When I start getting the sound problems, I test my speed on the aptv and it's always in the 500s.

Your explanation about the buffer bloat issue makes a lot of sense, but then wouldn't I be having atmos problems on every app on my Apple tv? It's only Netflix, and many others on the internet report the same experience.

Maybe the Netflix App handles buffer bloat differently than the other apps? The other possibility is isp throttling, but I'd think the video quality would drop and its not affected at all.

Maybe the Netflix Apple app isn't working quite right with my Marantz receiver? Anyone here stream through their Marantz receiver and have something to report?

 

[JLasher22443]

Hey Robert I have an AppleTV 4K and a Netflix Atmos account streaming through my Marantz AV7703. I myself have not heard any issues with Streaming Dolby Atmos content but I'm not 100% sure if I've ever tested it properly with Netflix Atmos Content. So I will Stream the Series you stated that caused issues in about 30 minutes for you and see what happens during the Stream. Also I'll find a Dolby Atmos Movie in Netflix and try it tonight as well for you.

On a side note; I used that Link Jon sent from IQrouter and I got an A rating for my network which is a physically wired network except for mobile devices of course.

Also in the Detailed Results it stated I have a BufferBloat rating as an A.

However I did run the fast.com speedtest and it says the same findings Jon stated of being choked down to 260mbps.

 

[JonFo]

Thanks, I will look into that. I'm not very knowledgeable about such things.

Well, lucky for you, as I'm the CEO of a networking company (we make the IQrouter) and I have a couple of patents on this tech

My hardware is pretty simple. Just the modem supplied by my ISP, and an Amplifi wireless router.

Then you can try using their QoS feature to tag the Apple TV units as a 'streamer' and that should prioritize that traffic over best-effort.

https://help.amplifi.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005226567-Enabling-QoS

 

[JonFo]

Wow, streaming dolby vision with dolby atmos at the same time only requires 25 mbps? When I start getting the sound problems, I test my speed on the aptv and it's always in the 500s.

Yep, that's it. Compression is pretty amazing these days.
So you only need a half-ton truck to bring home a quarter ton of stuff from Home Depot. Showing up in a ten-ton truck will not get it home any quicker, you'll just have a lot of unused capacity.

Your explanation about the buffer bloat issue makes a lot of sense, but then wouldn't I be having atmos problems on every app on my Apple tv? It's only Netflix, and many others on the internet report the same experience.

Using the trucks analogy, bufferbloat is like those trucks having an engine stall every couple of minutes, which makes getting the payload home take longer. Thus, the capacity had nothing to do with how 'quick' the payload gets there, there are other factors.

If the bufferbloat is severe enough, all streaming is a bear. But I'm guessing yours is not that bad (a C or D grade).
As I noted, the problem is entirely in the Netflix App for the Apple TV. It is the one that is sensitive to the stream downshifting rate and or quality, exposing a bug they have.

Maybe the Netflix App handles buffer bloat differently than the other apps? The other possibility is isp throttling, but I'd think the video quality would drop and its not affected at all.

Yes, their audio decoding code is messed up by the cycling of delivery rates caused by Bufferbloat. And if you have a clean enough connection, it will not exhibit.
On the Apple TV the DolbyDigital+ stream is handled uniquely by the TVos, and if the stream is not handed to it correctly, artifacts might (and obviously do) surface.

Maybe the Netflix Apple app isn't working quite right with my Marantz receiver? Anyone here stream through their Marantz receiver and have something to report?

I have both a Marantz AV8802 (large HT) and a Denon X3600H (media room w/C9 OLED), and I've experienced the issues a couple of times last year with the series Altered Carbon when going through the X3600 (only one with a 4K UHD display at the moment). But lately, all has been good on that setup.
I still think the problem is the Netflix App implementation, as all others work fine with the most demanding streams.

 

[JonFo]

On a side note; I used that Link Jon sent from IQrouter and I got an A rating for my network which is a physically wired network except for mobile devices of course.

Also in the Detailed Results it stated I have a BufferBloat rating as an A.

However I did run the fast.com speedtest and it says the same findings Jon stated of being choked down to 260mbps.

Looks like your ISP is a good one, not only low bufferbloat, but low packet loss and decent jitter, which lead to the A+ on 'quality'.

Note, the IQrouter IQtest 'quality' refers to bloat, but DSLreports insists on calling packet loss/jitter quality, when quality of user experience is impacted by both, but primarily bloat.

Interesting to see other ISPs also throttling Netflix, but still, when only 25 is needed for 4K UHD/Atmos, 200 is plenty of capacity headroom.

Again, silly industry terminology like 'speed' is a metric of capacity (bits per second), not one of velocity. How quickly a payload arrives is impacted by both capacity AND latencies. With latencies having a significant impact on user experience.

 

[Robert D]

Thanks JonFo for those links! I feel better now that I know my internet connection is good. Here are the results I got:

Fast.com 570 mbps down 120 up

Speedtest.net 530 mbps

My local ISP has their own test 545 mbps

DSL reports 555 mbps down 141 up, Overall: A , Buffer Bloat: B, Quality A +

The buffer bloat seemed highest on the test during upload test

IQ Router Quality A , mentioned nothing about buffer bloat.




So can I rule out buffer bloat and overall connection issues? This is at 6pm too and thats probably around peak time for usage in our area, people returning from work etc. I usually stream shows late at night and the connection is a bit faster then. Cant imagine buffer bloat being high at night if its not high now? Wouldnt that be a consistent thing, not depending on time of day? I know download speed can suffer during times of high load. We have fiber optic here and I pay for 500 mbps, usually get around that during the day and then at night I will get sometimes close to 575. Its 560ish now and its 6pm.

Im at a loss as to what is causing my Netflix sound issue on my Apple tv. Any ideas Jonfo? I really appreciate the time you took on here with me! I plan on calling Apple tomorrow or Wednesday and talk with them about it. Id like to know if Netflix is communicating with them about it. When I call Netflix it is a crappy experience and the person doesnt know much, blames it on my hardware. The lady I spoke to at Apple was much more informed and was a pleasure to speak to. Im willing to pay more for Apple I think because of the customer service they have. I was impressed. This is my first apple product since the Apple IIe back in 1985!

 

[Robert D]

2nd run on IQ router gave me an A +

 

[JLasher22443]

Robert I've tested and there is definitely something wrong with Netflix's decoding of Dolby Atmos Channels. I watched the Movie El Camino and at about 22 to 23 minutes into the movie Jesse is in a holding cell in the ground and Todd comes up and talks to him. At this point the volume is very faint and you can barely hear what Todd is saying outside of the hole/cell. My guess is the scene should be having Todd's voice above me in the Dolby channels but its not. Only way to confirm is to have someone else possibly try but if it is Netflix and not a Disc, I'm pretty sure they will notice as well.

Next I watched one Episode of the series Virgin River;(Sorry could only handle one episode, not my cup of tea) and the sound never quit or stopped working during the first episode. But I don't feel during that Episode there was anything that could have been a Dolby Atmos channel being used. If you have a specific Episode and timestamp on when it dropped let me know and I'll test it. Otherwise I'm still going with my gut and saying its a Netflix issue not ATV4K.

Tested the usual suspects for confirmation Dolby Atmos was working right after by choosing the Race Scene in Ready Player One and the opening Scene of Mad Max Fury Road and hearing the voices in Dolby. All worked fine for me so again I believe its Netflix being the issue.

But to be sure I'm going to try and pick another Dolby Atmos movie and watch it now on Netflix and see if I pick something else up. Jon if you could confirm that scene for me El Camino that would be great. The voice is barely audible when Todd Alquist is speaking from above Jesse.

 

[Robert D]

Robert I've tested and there is definitely something wrong with Netflix's decoding of Dolby Atmos Channels. I watched the Movie El Camino and at about 22 to 23 minutes into the movie Jesse is in a holding cell in the ground and Todd comes up and talks to him. At this point the volume is very faint and you can barely hear what Todd is saying outside of the hole/cell. My guess is the scene should be having Todd's voice above me in the Dolby channels but its not. Only way to confirm is to have someone else possibly try but if it is Netflix and not a Disc, I'm pretty sure they will notice as well.

Next I watched one Episode of the series Virgin River;(Sorry could only handle one episode, not my cup of tea) and the sound never quit or stopped working during the first episode. But I don't feel during that Episode there was anything that could have been a Dolby Atmos channel being used. If you have a specific Episode and timestamp on when it dropped let me know and I'll test it. Otherwise I'm still going with my gut and saying its a Netflix issue not ATV4K.

Tested the usual suspects for confirmation Dolby Atmos was working right after by choosing the Race Scene in Ready Player One and the opening Scene of Mad Max Fury Road and hearing the voices in Dolby. All worked fine for me so again I believe its Netflix being the issue.

But to be sure I'm going to try and pick another Dolby Atmos movie and watch it now on Netflix and see if I pick something else up. Jon if you could confirm that scene for me El Camino that would be great. The voice is barely audible when Todd Alquist is speaking from above Jesse.

Well, the thing is that it isnt tied to any one scene or time stamp. I can watch the same scene 2x and the first time the sound cuts out, and then the 2nd time it is fine. When it goes out, I rewind back about 10 seconds and watch the scene again and its fine. With my problem the sound cuts out entirely, no sound from any speakers. All 11 speakers cut out. It goes silent. A very few rare times the sound gets garbled up in some channels and makes weird digital glitchy sounds like beep beeeep blip . All on Netlfix through apple tv only.

I am able to stream atmos through apple tv and HBO Max without any problems on Apple tv box. I was also able to stream atmos through my Amazon Firestick 4k just fine using HBO Max and Amazon Prime. I ended up buying the Apple because I wanted Atmos on Netflix, and now it doesnt work properly! It was the main reason I bought the Apple. Amazon Fire Stick didnt have Atmos. Not sure if they ever got it. As of June this year they still didnt have it.

 

[Robert D]

The sound issue happened a lot on Virgin River. Now that I am watching Atypical it is fine since its only 5.1. One 50 minute episode of Virgin River had it happen about 3 or 4 times, when it goes silent. If you wait long enough the sound comes back on again but then you have missed all of the dialogue and have to rewind.

For now I am just putting up with the nonesense.

 

[Robert D]

14.7 GB update today! I'll say a little prayer that it fixes the problem. I'm really worried it will create new problems! Going to download it after we watch a movie.

 

[Robert D]

We watched The Matrix Revolutions before I did the update. It was on HBOMAX. I did hear just a few seconds of a static sound during 1 scene in the movie. Couldn't tell which channel(s) it was on. It was a light brief clicky or static sound and then it was gone. First time I've heard an artifact on HBOMAX atmos.

Just finished the new Apple download. Maybe I'll get lucky and it's fixed.