Another panel aging question...

[jtucker]

I have Montis in my main system now for 8 years. They sound great and look great in my current set up and I have no desire to replace them, except concerns about age of the panels. I am in a position now to go a different direction for speakers, but I am reluctant to lose the Montis. I live in southern AZ, so there are no humidity concerns. The panels get vacuumed every couple months. What should I reasonably expect the panel lifetime to be? I know some of you have a lot older MLs than me. Thanks in advance for any advice...

 

[Brandon Hartwick]

20 years seems to be about the cutoff, I wouldn't worry too much about it if they sound fine.

 

[Mirolab]

Why does it have to be Either/Or? I've had my SL3's for 20+ years and have had many other speakers over the years. Do you not have a place to store them? I suppose if you are an apartment dweller, then maybe not. I have 3 pairs of mains that I swap out about every 6 months.

 

[gvera]

I have Montis in my main system now for 8 years. They sound great and look great in my current set up and I have no desire to replace them, except concerns about age of the panels. I am in a position now to go a different direction for speakers, but I am reluctant to lose the Montis. I live in southern AZ, so there are no humidity concerns. The panels get vacuumed every couple months. What should I reasonably expect the panel lifetime to be? I know some of you have a lot older MLs than me. Thanks in advance for any advice...

I live in Montevideo, Uruguay, very humid mild climate (not torrid).
I bought my first Martin Logans, the Odysseys in 2001.
In 2014 I had some concerns about panel ageing and wondered if the speakers were sounding like when they were new, so I ordered a pair of new panels form ML (USD 1639/pr at that time).
The new panels sounded exactly as the 13 year old ones!
I sold the Odysseys a couple of year later including the replacement pair of panels, changed to Revel for four years, returned to ML Montis afterwards.

 

[jtucker]

Looks like i have plenty of time left. If we were dealing with monitors or other smaller speakers, I would probably have 2 or 3 pair to swap in and out. Even though I have a largish home it is "open concept" floor plan, so nowhere to easily store large speakers out of sight.

 

[Robert D]

Looks like i have plenty of time left. If we were dealing with monitors or other smaller speakers, I would probably have 2 or 3 pair to swap in and out. Even though I have a largish home it is "open concept" floor plan, so nowhere to easily store large speakers out of sight.

All of my stuff goes in the basement.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I live in Montevideo, Uruguay, very humid mild climate (not torrid).
I bought my first Martin Logans, the Odysseys in 2001.
In 2014 I had some concerns about panel ageing and wondered if the speakers were sounding like when they were new, so I ordered a pair of new panels form ML (USD 1639/pr at that time).
The new panels sounded exactly as the 13 year old ones!
I sold the Odysseys a couple of year later including the replacement pair of panels, changed to Revel for four years, returned to ML Montis afterwards.

Former home town was Colombo. I owned nearly every Maggie model except for the MG30.7's. Also owned several Quad ESL's (ESL63, 2805, 2905 & 2912). The latter Quad models were based in Melbourne after migrating from Colombo. Also had the ML CLSIIZ's and SL3's plus Apogee Diva's. Colombo weather was extremely humid, tropical climes big time! Humidity ratings in upper 90's closer to 100% is basically water!
By just standing up and sitting down several times, you just sweat!

Anyway, none of those Maggie's or Quads lasted, the wiring corrodes in few months, then the adhesives start to peel off and those high flying ribbon tweeters start to sag, eventually breaks. I've replaced 16 ribbon tweeters if recall correctly. Electrostats were the worst, although the CLSIIz's and SL3's weren't too shabby. They out-lasted all those Maggie's and Quads put together.

Fast fwd that to 20yrs, now in Melbourne, the dry weather is perfect! Have had the Ethos, Montis and Summit-X with no issues. Also the owners I've sold to haven't had any issues at all, and they mostly use Pass Labs and Jeff Rowland design amplifiers to drive their Stats. Now own the CLX Art's, and no issues either. If I were based back in Colombo, with such high tropical conditions, no chance Charlie!

Cheers and enjoy those finest tunes!
Woof! RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Looks like i have plenty of time left. If we were dealing with monitors or other smaller speakers, I would probably have 2 or 3 pair to swap in and out. Even though I have a largish home it is "open concept" floor plan, so nowhere to easily store large speakers out of sight.

The Montis are mighty fine! If looked after well, they should last a lifetime. I had them in our earlier apartment/ unit in Melb city. Whenever not in use, they were always covered, as is the case even now with my CLX's due to curious kitties. They've learned not to touch! Plus their fine hairs are floating all over the place, so vacuuming is regularly done.

Now at our new place, with a similar open plan living area... I just plonk all the gear right on the dinning table whenever deep cleaning is in progress. This includes disconnecting everything, cleaning all cables with the Nordost Anti-static solution. Using De-oxit cleaner on the speaker cables ends, plus a quick wipe on each RCA connections, all nice and shiny! All audio racks are wiped down and more vacuuming... this takes me nearly the whole day. Then wifey walks in to find the audio system on the dinning table, what the??? And then I'm in the dog house for a few hours without a bone... meow.

Once all back together again, and Humpty is enjoying those fine tunes, ah! All is well. I love the open plan design, just plonk it wherever mate, no biggie.

Cheers, and enjoy those finest tunes.
Woof! RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

All of my stuff goes in the basement.

Nice to have a basement, plenty of storage space there. However, I'm scared of basements... might find the boogieman!
Cheers, RJ

 

[Leporello]

I live in Montevideo, Uruguay, very humid mild climate (not torrid).
I bought my first Martin Logans, the Odysseys in 2001.
In 2014 I had some concerns about panel ageing and wondered if the speakers were sounding like when they were new, so I ordered a pair of new panels form ML (USD 1639/pr at that time).
The new panels sounded exactly as the 13 year old ones!
I sold the Odysseys a couple of year later including the replacement pair of panels, changed to Revel for four years, returned to ML Montis afterwards.

Thanks for that data point.

 

[Leporello]

The Montis are mighty fine! If looked after well, they should last a lifetime. I had them in our earlier apartment/ unit in Melb city. Whenever not in use, they were always covered, as is the case even now with my CLX's due to curious kitties. They've learned not to touch! Plus their fine hairs are floating all over the place, so vacuuming is regularly done.

Now at our new place, with a similar open plan living area... I just plonk all the gear right on the dinning table whenever deep cleaning is in progress. This includes disconnecting everything, cleaning all cables with the Nordost Anti-static solution. Using De-oxit cleaner on the speaker cables ends, plus a quick wipe on each RCA connections, all nice and shiny! All audio racks are wiped down and more vacuuming... this takes me nearly the whole day. Then wifey walks in to find the audio system on the dinning table, what the??? And then I'm in the dog house for a few hours without a bone... meow.

Once all back together again, and Humpty is enjoying those fine tunes, ah! All is well. I love the open plan design, just plonk it wherever mate, no biggie.

Cheers, and enjoy those finest tunes.
Woof! RJ

I've had kitties with varying levels of curiosity and I've never had one seriously interested in the ML panels. The Acoustats were something else. I had one who liked to climb to the top of the 7' panel. The grill clothe got seriously gnarled. but the diaphragms were nearly impossible to damage.

 

[Robert D]

Nice to have a basement, plenty of storage space there. However, I'm scared of basements... might find the boogieman!
Cheers, RJ

A few big spiders, buy I welcome them since they kill other insects!

 

[Jazzman53]

I recall reading a post that quoted ML's response to a customer who asked about older panels fading, but I don't recall where to find that post.

This gist of the response was that ML eliminated the problem on their newer models by adding a music sensor circuit which only energizes HV bias supply when a music signal is detected. Whereas on older models the bias supply stayed energized as long as the AC power cord was plugged into a wall outlet, so the diaphragm remained charged 24/7.

The implication is that the bias charge degrades the diaphragm coating over time, and if follows that panels that get played more (charged longer) degrade sooner.

While humidity increases the likelihood of arcing and immediate resulting damage to a stator, it may be a non-factor in panels fading over time.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I recall reading a post that quoted ML's response to a customer who asked about older panels fading, but I don't recall where to find that post.

This gist of the response was that ML eliminated the problem on their newer models by adding a music sensor circuit which only energizes HV bias supply when a music signal is detected. Whereas on older models the bias supply stayed energized as long as the AC power cord was plugged into a wall outlet, so the diaphragm remained charged 24/7.

The implication is that the bias charge degrades the diaphragm coating over time, and if follows that panels that get played more (charged longer) degrade sooner.

While humidity increases the likelihood of arcing and immediate resulting damage to a stator, it may be a non-factor in panels fading over time.

Correct!
That may have also been the contributing factor to the multiple panel failures I had with Quads, once switched on, they remained powered. They didn't have the auto-cut out circuit of ML's when a signal is not applied. I think this is a very clever way to safe guard Stats, and ML has thought about all these factors. Good on them.

Another factor is thst ML Stats are vacuum bonded. This is even stronger than welding. The X-Stat and Blade panels are so well designed, that they can handle upto 10,000 volts. They would never arc. To get them to arc, your amplifiers would need to put out serious industrial welding voltages, and in the case of domestic hifi, these types of high ratings are non existent.

Whereas Quads and other Stats, like Jansen, would arc for the slightest off track in high voltages. Causing holes in the mylar diaphragms, which is pretty useless after that happens.

Cheers to ML Stats!
WOOF! RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I've had kitties with varying levels of curiosity and I've never had one seriously interested in the ML panels. The Acoustats were something else. I had one who liked to climb to the top of the 7' panel. The grill clothe got seriously gnarled. but the diaphragms were nearly impossible to damage.

In fact, I've got an interesting observation.
With Maggie's and Apogee's, this wasn't an issue because back then we didn't have kitties, only doggies. They weren't bothered at all and it's much easier to train them. Whereas kitties can be a pain in the ***, although very cute.
Many owners whom I know, haven't had much luck with Maggie's and kitties for some reason. Must be the fabric.

So, when I first got the Ethos, the little fellow started to place his claws in the panels! At first I nearly had a heart attack! I think that day my heart popped out. Anyway, before I yelled till the pigeons flew out the trees... I watched the little bigger closely, and low & behold his claws couldn't get into the mylar at all! It only managed to sort of cling onto the micro-perf stators. I yelled anyway!

After a few stat iterations (Montis, Summit-X and CLX's), it was only after the CLX's that both of them got very curious. Again, none of their claws were long enough to get into the mylar. The furtherest was just the outer region on the stators. Anyway, they're fully covered when not in use, and during playback, the glowing tubes keep them well away! They certainly don't like those glowing glass thingys... meow.

ML must have thought about pets as well. My golly, isn't that fantastic!
Cheers, RJ

 

[Jazzman53]

If anyone has the older model ML's that do not have the sensing circuit, it would be prudent to plug the bias supply AC power cord into a switched outlet that's only energized when the amps are turned on.

This is what I've always done with my DIY stats which don't have a sensing circuit.

 

[R.I.P]

I have Montis in my main system now for 8 years. They sound great and look great in my current set up and I have no desire to replace them, except concerns about age of the panels. I am in a position now to go a different direction for speakers, but I am reluctant to lose the Montis. I live in southern AZ, so there are no humidity concerns. The panels get vacuumed every couple months. What should I reasonably expect the panel lifetime to be? I know some of you have a lot older MLs than me. Thanks in advance for any advice...

May last 20 years and greater with the mylar not becoming floppy and mylar coating remaining 100% intact. For optimal performance keep them free of dust build up.

I know no one is going to believe me except experts who designed the original CLS. My CLS age is 34.5 years. The panels at one point nearly completely gone due to not covering and not vacuuming the panel. Soot was removed after giving the panel a wash. Panels got restored somewhat for a year or 2 years. A fluttering sound now accompanied the music.

I offered extended family and one friend CLS free of charge. However, with three conditions - to take very good care, not to ever sell and install new panels. No one accepted my conditional offer.

Finally courier the panels to a reliable repair person in a different city. During repair they were serviced and copper tape that had become unstuck was reattached. To cut a long story short at the present moment they once again sound amazing and great. At least 95% rejuvenated. A great joy once again to listen to music through them.

Original panels have outlasted 2 integrated amps, 2 DVD, three CD players. Depending on the dust in the environment you must regularly vacuum the panels. From my experience dust accumulation is the most important obstacle to avoid.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, dust can always be a major issue and whatever you try to do, it's always floating around. I guess this is the reason why Quad ESL's have dust covers followed by further adding a layer of fabric over those covers. Talk about dust covers! The only major downside to this concept is the lack of transparency. ML's are far more transparent than any Quad ESL's put together.

Speaking of ML's being transparent, this is one of their major attributes. Another clever feature is the stat panel standby mode. Starting with their earlier Reserve line (Theos, Ethos, Montis, Summit) and now in the Masterpiece line, the panels only become active whenever a signal is applied. After a few minutes of non-signal activity, the panels go into standby mode shutting off. This clever feature prevents further attraction of dust, compared to if they were left powered on all the time. That would be a nightmare and definitely not a good thing to keep stat panels remained fully charged even when not in use. It also deteriorates the life of the trannies. Another typical issue with Quads, multiple tranny failures. Been there!

Cheers to ML Stats! Gotta love em!
Woof! RJ

 

[Leporello]

Yes, dust can always be a major issue and whatever you try to do, it's always floating around. I guess this is the reason why Quad ESL's have dust covers followed by further adding a layer of fabric over those covers. Talk about dust covers! The only major downside to this concept is the lack of transparency. ML's are far more transparent than any Quad ESL's put together.

Speaking of ML's being transparent, this is one of their major attributes. Another clever feature is the stat panel standby mode. Starting with their earlier Reserve line (Theos, Ethos, Montis, Summit) and now in the Masterpiece line, the panels only become active whenever a signal is applied. After a few minutes of non-signal activity, the panels go into standby mode shutting off. This clever feature prevents further attraction of dust, compared to if they were left powered on all the time. That would be a nightmare and definitely not a good thing to keep stat panels remained fully charged even when not in use. It also deteriorates the life of the trannies. Another typical issue with Quads, multiple tranny failures. Been there!

Cheers to ML Stats! Gotta love em!
Woof! RJ

The standby bias feature has been around since long before the Summit (2005) was introduced. The Ascent had it, the CLS II had it. Every ML bias system schematic I have seen has it. I suspect their very first ESL had it.

Acoustat was adamant the panels should be biased all the time, but their speakers were all covered in cloth.

Speaker grill cloths have always been a controversial subject. In theory, if a cloth cover is part of the design then it should be baked into the voicing. But if someone removes the grill cloth and likes the sound better, it supports the theory that speakers always sound better without the grill cloth.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Ah! Yes that's correct. In fact I should have known that since I did previously own both the CLSIIz's and SL3's. Must have slipped my mind since owning so many Maggie's and Quads after that. Fast fwd to nearly 20yrs after, and only in 2018 I ventured back towards ML stats.

Thanks for the info & update mate, goon on ya.
Cheers, RJ