Active crossover questions

[Davioj]

I have a few questions about going to an active crossover with my reQuest speakers.

1. What crossover is decent for this job and which one do you use and why without breaking the bank.

2. Do you have to use like an Anthem ARC or Dirac to set it up, as I have an ARC system but no tablet or laptop to use it with along with not having much knowledge to even read the graphs that you get from the readings and knowing what to do with them.

3. Can you set this up by ear will it work out or could I end up having it not sound as good as it does now and it sounds very good as it is, I have my reQuest speakers bi-amped, 2 2 channel Anthem amps 1 powers 1 speaker top and bottom and the other powers the other, I was talking to Chris Johnson who started Anthem and he says I can upgrade my 2 amps and they will sound even better which is an option.

Anyway if anyone can chime in on these questions it would be very appreciated to have an idea on which way to go.

Dave

 

[Tosh]

My dad nagged me to get one of these Pyramid 3-way active xo's back in 1994, and I swapped out some resistors to get the xo frequencies I need. Quiet enough, uses RCA in/outs, and solid idiot-proof Taiwanese exnovation that's been floating around since the late 80's. Sold as Pyle and Pyramid and always available on ebay for ~$100 or at your local pawnshop for $29. Would buy again!

 

[Jazzman53]

I'm not familiar with most of the DSP crossovers out there so I can't say which is best or whatever.
I can only tell you that I use a DBX Driverack Venu 360 running my hybrid ESLs and RiPol subs, and I love it.

The Venu 360 isn't cheap (about $1,230 with the mic) but its little brother, the Driverack PA2 has everything any home hi-fi setup would need you get a new one for about $570 with mic, or used units on Ebay run about $250.

Both units are designed for pro PA applications but work well in home stereo--- two channels in to six channels out, time-delay, auto-EQ, 31band graphic EQs, parametric EQ's, dynamic limiters--- everything is controlled by an Ipad, smart phone or tablet interface that's intuitive and easy to use. The major difference between the Venu 360 and PA2 is the Venu 360 has both XLR analog and AES digital inputs, whereas the PA2 has only XLR analog inputs.

The auto-EQ functions are really fast too... no obnoxious pink noise, just a few 1-second frequency sweeps with the mic placed at three room positions, and it then automatically overlays parametric EQs to bring your system's frequency response to your preselected curve. I do final tuning by ear.

Here's a Youtube about the PA2:

https://www.google.com/search?clien...ate=ive&vld=cid:c8973d9d,vid:GAEFTADQ7PM,st:0

 

[Davioj]

So Jazzman I don't have XLR imputs only RCA but you can get adapters I think for that, do you still run your panels through your existing preamp or do you run them through the driverack and in the setup choose passive, then run the 2 ESL woofers through the low outputs, where do you hook up the subs to as I have 2 subs and it looks like the DBX PA 2 only has 2 sub hookups, I looked at the setup on that video and it seems like it is fairly easy to setup everything and thanks for the help.

Dave

 

[Jazzman53]

Hi Dave,

The PA2 has two analog input channels (Left and Right stereo) feeding into its crossover which splits the two input channel into 6 analog output channels.

That provides left and right subwoofer channels (if using two subs) or the two sub channels can be summed to feed a single sub, left and right mid channels, and left and right high channels.

My setup is low/mid/high, six-channel stereo with the Venue 360 feeding three Carver TFM-25 stereo amps, which have RCA inputs so I use XLR-to-RCA adapters.

I'm steaming Tidal from a Logitech Transporter, which is also a digital preamp. The signal path is AES digital (XLR cable) from the Transporter to the Venu 360's digital input, thru the Venu's DSP, then six analog channels out to the amps.

The two bass channels out feed a single Carver amp driving a pair of RiPol subs.
The remaining four channels power the hybrid stats, which are vertically bi-ampd with a pair of Carver stereo amps.

If I were using a PA2, I would have to use an analog preamp, which would require a DA conversion from the Transporter to preamp, then an AD conversion into the PA2's DSP, then another DA conversion out to the amps.

Since I am using the Transporter's digital preamp, the signal path is digital to the DSP, then a single DA conversion out to the amps. Pretty cool...

 

[Jazzman53]

A couple of screenshots from the DBX Driverack Venue 360:

 

[Davioj]

So you use your preamp into the venu then into your amp, then into the panels and woofers biamped with the carvers, I use 2 Anthem 2 channel amps to bi-amp the speakers right now but the speakers are still passive right now, didn't know you could go through the venu for the panel part of the speaker because there is still the passive crossover in it. I am thinking about the Venu 360 just bite the bullet and buy it, its $1680 up here in Canada then I won't need anything else the PA2 is about $860, I stream tidal with a bluesound node and it has RCA analogue outputs. I also watched the video you sent the link to.

Dave

 

[Jazzman53]

So you use your preamp into the venu then into your amp, then into the panels and woofers biamped with the carvers, I use 2 Anthem 2 channel amps to bi-amp the speakers right now but the speakers are still passive right now, didn't know you could go through the venu for the panel part of the speaker because there is still the passive crossover in it. I am thinking about the Venu 360 just bite the bullet and buy it, its $1680 up here in Canada then I won't need anything else the PA2 is about $860, I stream tidal with a bluesound node and it has RCA analogue outputs. I also watched the video you sent the link to.

Dave

You would need to rewire the speaker internally to bypass its crossover, then drive the panel directly.

 

[Davioj]

Jazzman so you have rewired the panel directly then to do it your way, I was just going to go with an active woofer not the panel, still run the panel through the preamp to the amp then to the panel I don't know too much about rewiring to bypass the internal crossover for the panel was just going to bypass the passive crossover for the woofer.


Dave

 

[Jazzman53]

That would improve your bass. Still, it seems a shame to have unneeded passive components in the signal path to the panel.

In my case there was no "rewiring" required because my DIY speakers never had passive crossovers in the first place. The panels are directly connected to the step-up transformers and the woofers directly connected to their amp channels.

Surely someone on this forum has rewired MLs to entirely omit the passive crossovers but I haven't.

 

[Davioj]

Wow that's really nice for you and Yes they have a thread out there that shows how to bypass the panel part of the passive XO but I'm not that good with trying it would hate to do something wrong and pooch the reQuests, I just repaneled them last year, I am thinking of sending my Anthem amps in to have them upgraded. The fellow that started Anthem has a shop about 1/2 an hour from my house and I was there 2 days ago I am just waiting for a quote from him, he said it will make a very improved amplifier, just like having the statement line and I don't have a lot of money into these 2 amps anyway, I believe it's about $16 or $1700 into the 2 of them so I can afford to stick some money into them so all I need to do is run the venu into the bypassed passive for the woofer and the 2 subs. Thanks for all the insights on the venu though, seems like I should be able to set it up, not too hard.

Dave

 

[JonFo]

I have a few questions about going to an active crossover with my reQuest speakers.

1. What crossover is decent for this job and which one do you use and why without breaking the bank.

2. Do you have to use like an Anthem ARC or Dirac to set it up, as I have an ARC system but no tablet or laptop to use it with along with not having much knowledge to even read the graphs that you get from the readings and knowing what to do with them.

3. Can you set this up by ear will it work out or could I end up having it not sound as good as it does now and it sounds very good as it is, I have my reQuest speakers bi-amped, 2 2 channel Anthem amps 1 powers 1 speaker top and bottom and the other powers the other, I was talking to Chris Johnson who started Anthem and he says I can upgrade my 2 amps and they will sound even better which is an option.

Anyway if anyone can chime in on these questions it would be very appreciated to have an idea on which way to go.

Dave

As an active XO user for the past 20 years, I can say that a DSP-based crossover will give you the most flexibility but is also the most complex to set up.

My DBX DriveRack 4800 (4 in / 8 out) has been running solid for 16 years, so that product line is built like a tank. So, like Jazzman53, I would also recommend the DriveRackVenu 360 as the best for both capabilities and robustness.

as described, the setup of the Xo is independent of the DRC used (e.g. ARC), and the DRC is then layered on top.
I use nearfield measurements to make the early adjustments, as I want to ensure the speaker is balanced relative to its elements (panel vs woofer). I do make some far-field measurements to check, but I do not try to correct obvious room-induced errors. I let the DRC handle those..

Once the XO is set, I run a full DRC setup, which for me is Audyssey MultEQ XT32, using the Pro kit with a calibrated mic.

I have a diagram of how my system is connected in the second post of my system page, but don't be overwhelmed; it's a spaghetti bowl only because I run a 7.4.4 system with five active speakers.

As for #3, you should use a measurement system. I recommend REW, but the built-in solution in the DriveRacks is fine.
My analogy is: if you want to build a wood cabinet, then you will need squares, measuring tape, etc. And as the saying goes: measure twice, cut once.
So, learning how to measure audio is critical to getting the most out of the system.

 

[Davioj]

As an active XO user for the past 20 years, I can say that a DSP-based crossover will give you the most flexibility but is also the most complex to set up.

My DBX DriveRack 4800 (4 in / 8 out) has been running solid for 16 years, so that product line is built like a tank. So, like Jazzman53, I would also recommend the DriveRackVenu 360 as the best for both capabilities and robustness.

as described, the setup of the Xo is independent of the DRC used (e.g. ARC), and the DRC is then layered on top.
I use nearfield measurements to make the early adjustments, as I want to ensure the speaker is balanced relative to its elements (panel vs woofer). I do make some far-field measurements to check, but I do not try to correct obvious room-induced errors. I let the DRC handle those..

Once the XO is set, I run a full DRC setup, which for me is Audyssey MultEQ XT32, using the Pro kit with a calibrated mic.

I have a diagram of how my system is connected in the second post of my system page, but don't be overwhelmed; it's a spaghetti bowl only because I run a 7.4.4 system with five active speakers.

As for #3, you should use a measurement system. I recommend REW, but the built-in solution in the DriveRacks is fine.
My analogy is: if you want to build a wood cabinet, then you will need squares, measuring tape, etc. And as the saying goes: measure twice, cut once.
So, learning how to measure audio is critical to getting the most out of the system.

JonFo, What I am asking is if I do not use a measurement tool (as I don't understand them or able to read them) can this make my system sound worse, right now it sounds pretty good for soundstage and all, I set up my 2 subs by ear and I think it sounds good (to me anyway) I just would hate to wind up spending money and going backward instead of improving. JonFo you could come to Canada and show me how its done (hehehe just kidding) anyway I will just have to keep researching this to see which way is best to go for me learn how to do measurements and all, thank you for the input all is welcomed. Also can you use the ARC genesis mic for the venu or do you need to buy a new mic for it as it does not come with a mic so that makes the system about $1900.

Dave

 

[Jazzman53]

I'm old and not very tech savvy, and my attempt at using REW made my head hurt. I never even got thru the installation because I couldn't figure out how to make it work without re-inserting an analog preamp into my full-digital system, which I didn't want to do.

From what I could tell, REW is a powerful tool, with waterfall graphs, response graphing, etc., for ringing out every ounce of performance but old dogs like me don't learn new tricks so well.

If you have a DBX Driverack, that's basically all you need. It's auto-EQ function works so well that only minor tweaking, if any, is needed afterward.

The initial setup of the crossovers and gains is the only part that is even moderately complicated--- and that's basically just volume-matching 3 frequency bands (if using 3-way with subs), using a mic displaying pink noise on the Driverack's RTA screen.

The Auto-EQ function is fully automatic and super easy.

Here's a link explaining my Setup and Tuning procedure in detail:
https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/my-bi-amp-setup-tuning-procedure.20075/#post-213789

 

[audioxcel]

I have a few questions about going to an active crossover with my reQuest speakers.

1. What crossover is decent for this job and which one do you use and why without breaking the bank.

2. Do you have to use like an Anthem ARC or Dirac to set it up, as I have an ARC system but no tablet or laptop to use it with along with not having much knowledge to even read the graphs that you get from the readings and knowing what to do with them.

3. Can you set this up by ear will it work out or could I end up having it not sound as good as it does now and it sounds very good as it is, I have my reQuest speakers bi-amped, 2 2 channel Anthem amps 1 powers 1 speaker top and bottom and the other powers the other, I was talking to Chris Johnson who started Anthem and he says I can upgrade my 2 amps and they will sound even better which is an option.

Anyway if anyone can chime in on these questions it would be very appreciated to have an idea on which way to go.

Dave

I have original Sequels that I bought a few months after they were first released (3rd set of panels and woofers changed once). I also have a Mirage BPS-400 bipolar sub.

I once considered bypassing the crossover in my Sequels (before I bought the BPS-400) but decided instead to use a Mirage LFX-3 crossover between my CAT preamp and the sub. With that set-up, I got a very well balanced sound in my room and have never looked back. The sub and the Sequels blend perfectly and you would never know that the sub (which is behind my listening sofa) is in the room if I didn't tell you.

Sometimes less is more.