I need TT help also....

A few fellows here really know their way around TT's so I ask for some help...

A bit more than a year ago I purchased Joey's (where's he been?) Scoutmaster, which sat packed away while our home was being built. After finally setting it up and getting some vinyl time in, I am disappointed when it comes to bass.

With CD's or tape (reel to reel, 1/4") there is plenty of bass, with CD's being the best, and at times I find some discs too boomy. With records, I hear almost nothing from my dual Descents, except for some rumble. Tape is excellent for the most part.

The system is: Scoutmaster, Benz micro glider rebuilt by Soundsmith (recommended 2.0 tracking force), Quicksilver phono stage fed into Krell KPS25s (Thanks, CAP!). Speakers are latest version of reQuests, with a Descent behind each. Amplification is bridged pairs of Atma-Sphere MA1-MKII.2 (thats correct, 56 triodes boiling off electrons). Cables from phono stage are short, Monster. Cables from TT to phono stage are probably junk (radio shack gold series), from the snake box, about 6 feet.

Vinyl is supposed to be the holy grail, and I agree with most of that, except that my system clearly does not reproduce the lower end, and I dont know where to start. My system does have the ability to go low with Cd's and tape. I have a pretty good tape deck (Ampex ATR 800 with custom ATR Services headstack) and have demoe'd a few 'Tape Project' tapes....good, really good. So CD's and tape do the lower end really well, but not so much with vinyl.

Where do I start to figure this problem out?

Dave fowarded me his cell# back when I first purchased the table (and he's a train guy, woohoo!) but perhaps there is something obvious before I start bugging the heck out of what I consider the Ultimate Vinyl Authority on this forum. OK, so there are a few guys that really know records (and I still believe that records can offer the best playback experience), so...Help (!)

Regards,
Tj

Tj, Good evening, yeah that Joey character, heck I PM'ed him, left him a voice mail, no reply !!! You know what I think, he's got one of them ER nurses, you know the kind...white fishnets, high heels....whooo, I guess I better put on the brakes !

So, not getting the bass you want. Was it there before you 'packed up' the TT ? if so, then be sure to re-check your VTA (Vertical Tracking Angle) of your arm, for if out of adj it will impact the lower octaves.

While your at it be sure of your VTF as well.

Tj Bassi said:

A few fellows here really know their way around TT's so I ask for some help...

A bit more than a year ago I purchased Joey's (where's he been?) Scoutmaster, which sat packed away while our home was being built. After finally setting it up and getting some vinyl time in, I am disappointed when it comes to bass.

With CD's or tape (reel to reel, 1/4") there is plenty of bass, with CD's being the best, and at times I find some discs too boomy. With records, I hear almost nothing from my dual Descents, except for some rumble. Tape is excellent for the most part.

The system is: Scoutmaster, Benz micro glider rebuilt by Soundsmith (recommended 2.0 tracking force), Quicksilver phono stage fed into Krell KPS25s (Thanks, CAP!). Speakers are latest version of reQuests, with a Descent behind each. Amplification is bridged pairs of Atma-Sphere MA1-MKII.2 (thats correct, 56 triodes boiling off electrons). Cables from phono stage are short, Monster. Cables from TT to phono stage are probably junk (radio shack gold series), from the snake box, about 6 feet.

Vinyl is supposed to be the holy grail, and I agree with most of that, except that my system clearly does not reproduce the lower end, and I dont know where to start. My system does have the ability to go low with Cd's and tape. I have a pretty good tape deck (Ampex ATR 800 with custom ATR Services headstack) and have demoe'd a few 'Tape Project' tapes....good, really good. So CD's and tape do the lower end really well, but not so much with vinyl.

Where do I start to figure this problem out?

Dave fowarded me his cell# back when I first purchased the table (and he's a train guy, woohoo!) but perhaps there is something obvious before I start bugging the heck out of what I consider the Ultimate Vinyl Authority on this forum. OK, so there are a few guys that really know records (and I still believe that records can offer the best playback experience), so...Help (!)

Regards,
Tj

Click to expand...

In setting up the table did the cart get removed and reinstalled? If so it sounds as though it is wired out of phase. Check the connection to the headshell/arm and make sure all is well.

Yeah, I agree with "twitch"--anytime you move a TT, you need to basically re-calibrate or at least re-verify) your settings for VTA and tracking force.

But then again, it could be those interconnects you are using. I know that ICs can make a HUGE difference with turntables, especially with MC carts if they have low output. Also, from every review I've seen and the few times I've heard) the Glider, there seems to be near-universal agreement (and that includes me) that although it is a very detailed and open-sounding cartridge with especially nice mids, it is somewhat light on the bass...

Try some silver ICs to squeeze all the signal you can out of that MC pickup.

--Richard

OK I think I can help since I now use my Descent with analogue. Read my system link first.

So what is the frequency response of your cart? How low does it go? At what frequency does your phono stage roll off? Have you got your TT well away from the Descents i.e. there is little acoustic feedback? Is your TT on a non-rigid/unsteady base? There are a lot of factors to consider.

Vinyl low bass output simply is not that good. Your Descent will pick up mild warps in the record. Sometimes you will literally see it leap around in a way that is totally unrelated to the music.

The only reason I use my Descent with my record player now is a recent cartridge change. The one I use now just doesn't reproduce really low bass like my old Ortofon did. It's actually an advantage and makes the Descent usable with my record player. The Ortofon would cause literally huge cone excursions with the Descent, which you'd hear as an airy low frequency rumble.

Better bass definition also seems to come from big thick heavy TT platters.

The table sat in its box since purchasing it, and the cart was not part of the deal. Originally I was going towards a Blackbird or BP Evo III, but stumbled upon the rebuilt Benz at a pretty good price. Soundsmith has a reputation for quality work (so I've been told). The cart came with a report; a small graph printed on chart-recorder paper, but I dont know how to make sense of it. I also dont know if the report was from the original cart of after the rebuild

When I first tried to set up the TT, I couldnt get full swing out of the arm...the front part of the counterweight assembly would bump the little hydraulic plunger (whaddya call that thing anyway?) near the centermost section of the record. I sent a few photos of the TT setup to VPI and they walked me thru a few things that needed to be re-adjusted on the arm. It was something like four phone calls over the better part of an afternoon but I got it set up reasonably well.

I recall spending forever getting the tracking force correct (or what I think is correct), which is difficult as the counterweight also adjusts the azimuth. It seems as if you change one, you fudge the other.

The cart wiring should be correct, but I've only done it once and it is obviously worth a re-look.

VTA......Hmmmmmmm......whats that? I dont recall that in the setup instructions, which I dont have with me at the office. Best I recall is that the arm is parallel to the top of the disc. Definitely need to look at that adjustment, considering it is Dave's first suggestion. If its not covered in the setup how do I go about checking it?

I'll try better cables. Quicksilver recommends the shortest (1~1.5 ft) interconnect between the phono stage and preamp, which is what I have, but that puts the phono stage about 6 feet from the TT. Someone told me that its sometimes a good idea to keep the TT away from the main system, hence long cables arent such a bad idea.

My preamp doesnt have any provision for cart loading. Is this bad?

Good suggestions guys......thanks for the ideas. When I get in this evening, or tomorrow, I'm going to re-look the setup based on your ideas and see if anything is obviously incorrect. I'm kinda frustrated....didnt realize TT setup was so detailed. Also because I've heard some good vinyl and am trying to get to that point.

Tj

Just checked, the VPI instructions for the JMW-9 arm briefly state to 'raise or lower the arm to the desired height', and to use an index card to check that the arm tube is parallel to the record as a starting point for tuning VTA. Nothing beyond that is covered in terms of optimum VTA.

Is 'parallel' more/less correct?

Tj

Mine is absolutely as parallel as I can get it. My arm doesn't have easy VTA adjustment, though. You should find changes in VTA will make some difference, as Dave said.

TJ - mark what I said about the Descent with vinyl. It is absolutely true. Even with a record with modest ripples on it, I will turn it off.

When using your TT, do you see the kind of behaviour I describe with the Descents bass cones? If not, your phono stage may roll off at a relatively high frequency. If you have your Descent set to 25Hz, check to see how low your phono stage rolls off i.e. what is it's quoted frequency response?

User211 said:

Vinyl low bass output simply is not that good. Your Descent will pick up mild warps in the record. Sometimes you will literally see it leap around in a way that is totally unrelated to the music.

Click to expand...

Not true, vinyl bass can be as good as any other, save analog tape IMO, it all depends on the matching between the cartridge and the tone arm and the table. some tables simply retrieve better bass than others. If your resonance frequency is in the warp region you WILL get some crazy cone movement from woofers.

User211 said:

The only reason I use my Descent with my record player now is a recent cartridge change. The one I use now just doesn't reproduce really low bass like my old Ortofon did. It's actually an advantage and makes the Descent usable with my record player. The Ortofon would cause literally huge cone excursions with the Descent, which you'd hear as an airy low frequency rumble.

Click to expand...

What cart are you using? It sounds as though the compliance is a better match for the arm you have and the loss of that infrasonic output does cause the impression of less low bass.

Better bass definition also seems to come from big thick heavy TT platters.[/quote]

Tj Bassi said:

Just checked, the VPI instructions for the JMW-9 arm briefly state to 'raise or lower the arm to the desired height', and to use an index card to check that the arm tube is parallel to the record as a starting point for tuning VTA. Nothing beyond that is covered in terms of optimum VTA.

Is 'parallel' more/less correct?

Tj

Click to expand...

I doubt that VTA would cause loss of bass to the extent you describe unless it was so off the arm was clearly sloping up or down. My experience with VTA is that it affects treble extension and openness much more so than bass extension, small changes in VTA can have dramatic effects on this area of the frequency spectrum, not so much in the bass IME. Parallel is a good place to start until you have the whole deal sorted out.

At that point you may want to reach a good average setting that makes most albums sound their best unless you are a change VTA for every album type!

Dreamer said:

Try some silver ICs to squeeze all the signal you can out of that MC pickup.

--Richard

Click to expand...

Not to confuse issues, but silver ICs tend to be brighter than copper. I find that the copper have better bass response than silver for the connection between my phono stage and preamp.

risabet said:

Not true, vinyl bass can be as good as any other, save analog tape IMO, it all depends on the matching between the cartridge and the tone arm and the table. some tables simply retrieve better bass than others. If your resonance frequency is in the warp region you WILL get some crazy cone movement from woofers.

What cart are you using? It sounds as though the compliance is a better match for the arm you have and the loss of that infrasonic output does cause the impression of less low bass.

Click to expand...

Hm I thought someone might pick me up on that. It wasn't put that well, I guess... but consider the following:

1) I use a Transfiguration Orpheus which is a great match for my yellow dot Morch arm tube in terms of compliance.

2) Down at Descent frequency (sub 25 Hz - really more around 13 Hz and below I'd guess), vinyl puts out crap. It simply does - there is no question about it. It's just record warps, and yes, even the best pressings have a little of it. Many phono stages deliberately roll off to prevent this behaviour. Infact I wish mine did, but having said that, it is an excellent sounding phono stage.

3) That isn't to say vinyl is bad at reproducing a bass guitar - it handles it well, but you WILL get huge cone excursions with some pressings. That can and does cause a Descent to "go haywire". It's really wacky when you see just how huge the excursions can be, and as ML says, it truly is a "long throw" design!

Hope that clears it.

I'd really suggest getting your hands on the Acoustic Sounds Test record
and see if you can borrow a good multimeter from someone if you don't have one to get the table dialed in as well as you can first.

Next, I'll bet those cables are holding you back. If you can make the tonearm to phono pre cable the short one, that will give you more dynamics overall, because that signal coming out of the cart is so low, the less wire you run it through the better. Then if you have to run a 6ft cable from phono pre to pre, that's not as bad. (the shorter you can make this though will help a touch)

email the guys at Musical Surroundings to find out the proper loading for your cartridge. I just looked at the chart and there are three different Gliders, all with different loading requirements.

Last but not least, is this the phono preamp you have?

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue24/quicksilver.htm

Is the Micro Glider a high output MC that needs to see 47K?

In that case you should be ok....

It really sounds like a fine tuning/impedance mismatch thing from here. The Scoutmaster has always been a little light in the front-back 3D detail, but they have great bass. That's the one problem you shouldn't be having with that table...

Good luck on dialing it in.

The test record is a good suggestion and I'll make it a point to get one. The preamp in the link is the one I am using, the cart is an earlier Micro Glider and Google searches only seem to come up with info on the newer ones....but that deserves more research.

All good ideas, I hope to get some testing in tonite.

Tj

Perhaps there is something wrong with the phono stage? Try borrowing another one and trying it out. A good dealer (or someone else here) should be able to help.

Yeah something sounds pretty seriously wrong - you might be right Bernard.

TJ - keep your main amps off and your Descent on. Do you hear any bass out of your Descent when a record is on?

Hello TJ, while I am not an authority in vinyl reproduction it does seem to me that it may have something to do with the cartridge loading. I know when I played around with that in my own phono preamp there was quite a bit of rolling off in the bass region when the cart was not loaded correctly. This is of course assuming that the cart is performing up to spec since the rebuild. If you are able to borrow another phono preamp and try a couple of different load settings that would narrow your possibilities if the problem persists. If you can find the correct loading for your cart on the manufactures website and check that against what you have it at then there may be no need to change your settings if you are already running it withing their guidelines. Hope it all works out.

I agree with the cartridge loading aspects, mentioned above. An incorrect loading setting will have dramatic affects to the sound. Also, as mentioned, check the cartridge wiring. I wouldn't be too concerned with the VTA, it is probably set pretty close. Good luck!

Again, call the guys at musical surroundings

www.musicalsurroundings.com

They are the Benz importers and will be able to help you.

Instead of the usual Sunday morning music session, I picked out a few discs and gave my TT setup a once-over based on the suggestions in this thread. Right off the top I checked cartridge wiring, VTF (both good) but did not have a better pair of interconnects to go between the phono stage and TT.

Using Justin's suggestion, a disc was played with the main amps off but subwoofers on, which seemed to give a good reference when setting VTA, which can be done on the fly with the Scoutmaster (albeit carefully). I had to adjust the knurled height ring quite a bit to really make a drastic change in bass (or with the amps on, go the other way and brighten the upper end too much). So in the end, the VTA adjustment seemed pretty good where it initially started, and finished up with a bit less angle than initial setup.

I chose records that I also have on other formats, mainly tape, since that is my format of choice and perhaps my ears are accustomed to 'tape listening', if such a condition exists. Loading up George Thorogoods 'Move it on Over' on both formats was a good starting point; both formats gave good performance except it took a higher preamp level to get the same volume from vinyl as it does tape.

A second disc, Elton John 'Best Of' saw similiar results, with tape edging out in the bass department and again, a bigger twist of the volume knob required to match output level with the records. The LP had better dynamics but at the expense of a bit of the bottom end.

I loaded up a third disc, Journey 'Frontiers', which I dont own on any other format. The first track 'Seperate Ways' was a surprise, bass seemed a bit drowned out, not as pronounced as when I'd heard it in the past. Volume was a bit lower on this disc than others at similiar settings, and increasing the volume quickly drove the subwoofer cones into drastic excursions, similiar to what Justin described. Perhaps just a bad pressing?

I tried a few other records, mainly classical-some jazz just for effort. Although I made a bit of an improvement in the bottom end, I still feel as if it is not the equal of CDs/Tape, or at least there is more to be had with more work.

None of my audio buddies are into vinyl, but perhaps I can ask around to borrow a decent phono stage, and of course pick up better interconnects (and a test LP, also).

In the end, I've not exactly solved the problem, but at least I know what its not.

Tj