Prima Luna vs Six Pacs

Hi, long time (not too long) lurker here. I'm currently using a Krell 400xi to power my Aerius speakers. I've got the Bellari tube phono amp for the Scout and after a few cable swaps, I decided that I like the tube sound I'm getting. So, now I want to make a plunge and get a tube preamp and some mono bloc tube amps. I've read many reviews of many great tube amps and have listened to quite a few. Two I haven't heard, but have received great reviews are the Prima Luna 7's and the Audio Electronics Six Pacs. Looking at the pictures of the interiors of each, the Prima Lunas are simply built to a higher standard, as the cables are neatly routed, while the Six Pacs wiring looks like spaghetti. Both the PL and the AE have high quality components, though and I doubt the neat wiring has too much affect on the sound quality, but it may have an effect on longevity. Anyway, now that I've finally gotten to my question, has anyone here actually listened to both of these amps and if so, what are your impressions? Thanks, Steve.

Only heard the PrimaLune Prologue 2, loved it. I have the Prologue 3 (pre amp) and I will purchase the six or seven (cash on hand will decide ) the end of this year.

GregLett said:

Only heard the PrimaLune Prologue 2, loved it. I have the Prologue 3 (pre amp) and I will purchase the six or seven (cash on hand will decide ) the end of this year.

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Greg, are there any weaknesses with the Prologue 3? I'm leaning towards the Prologue 3 and the PL -7. I really like the looks of the Six Pacs and the fact that they are made in the States, but the 7's look good too, even with the tube guard in place. When researching the preamps, I found no negative reviews of the Prologue 3, but the AE DJH (matching preamp for the SixPacs) had a negative review. Thanks, Steve.

I bought my SixPacs after comparing with other amplifiers with similar designs of push-pull EL34 (or KT88) tubes. The reason being that I need a medium-powered amplifier to cope with the tough load presented by the ReQuest's panels. I knew going in that the smaller SET type amplifiers would not work, unless I go to the stratospheric priced Cary 805C or the likes The ARC VT100 sounded dry and too...hi-fi (lifeless?) in my set-up. It also sounded a bit stressed when pushed. The Rogue 90 is a bit better in the mids but still lack the underlying tone. The Prima Luna fared a bit better than the Rogue, but it still lacked the underlying tone I was looking for. Probably due to the small amount of feedback in the design of the PL. When I get to the SixPacs, they offer the magic that draw one into the performance. I won't bore you with the adjectives or "mini-review" of the SixPacs. You can read the online reviews and they do a much better job at describing the SixPacs than I can. The things going for the SixPacs are the 6 EL34 tubes in push-pull triode configuration to produce 50 watts each monobloc. Compared to the other amplifier designs involving 4 output tubes asking to produce 70 watts (PL), 90 watts (Rogue) and 100 watts (ARC). The input tubes are worth mentioning as well. My SixPacs come with the 12BZ7 input tube on top of the EL-84 current source tube. As input tube, I like the 12BZ7 for its big underlying tone, the details and layering of the music. That in addition to the 12BZ7 being...cheap, compared to the high-priced NOS 12AX7 or 6SN7 of the other designs. As a side note, the original Cary V12i had the 6922 input tubes and Dennis "upgraded" his V12R design using the 12BZ7 tubes just because the SixPacs were sounding better than the V12i! I must say that I am partial to the EL34 tubes running in triode mode for I feel that they are very musical in the midrange performance. The KT88 may have better high extension and better punch in the bass but a bit dry in the mids. Without knowing what you're looking for, all I can put down is my experience based on my preferences. I hope it help clarify things a bit for you.

Spike

slowGEEZR said:

Greg, are there any weaknesses with the Prologue 3? I'm leaning towards the Prologue 3 and the PL -7. I really like the looks of the Six Pacs and the fact that they are made in the States, but the 7's look good too, even with the tube guard in place. When researching the preamps, I found no negative reviews of the Prologue 3, but the AE DJH (matching preamp for the SixPacs) had a negative review. Thanks, Steve.

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I have no complaints about the Prologue 3. And as you stated I also found no negative reviews. I've had it for over a year, and it's been good to me.

I'm guessing your Krell is no slouch as an amplifier. You may want to consider putting your money toward the best tube preamp you can get right now and see how that pairs with the Krell. It may give you enough of the tube sound you are looking for combined with the iron-fisted control over the speakers the Krell's are known for. That may give you the best bang for the buck.

Then if you decided you really wanted to go all tubes down the road, you could save your money and do the research and get the best tube amp to match with your system. Just a thought.

I run all tubes on the panels and love it, but my CJ's put out 140 watts per channel and I have another 200 wpc of solid state driving my woofers. Nothing beats ample power reserves for driving Martin Logan speakers.

Rich said:

I'm guessing your Krell is no slouch as an amplifier. You may want to consider putting your money toward the best tube preamp you can get right now and see how that pairs with the Krell. It may give you enough of the tube sound you are looking for combined with the iron-fisted control over the speakers the Krell's are known for. That may give you the best bang for the buck.

Then if you decided you really wanted to go all tubes down the road, you could save your money and do the research and get the best tube amp to match with your system. Just a thought.

I run all tubes on the panels and love it, but my CJ's put out 140 watts per channel and I have another 200 wpc of solid state driving my woofers. Nothing beats ample power reserves for driving Martin Logan speakers.

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krells' are indeed no slouch, but boy are they expensive.

Thank you...

Thanks for the replies. I still have some thinking and listening to do. - Steve

Bought Jolida JD 1000RC instead...

After all the reading and listening, I ended up buying the Jolida from Jolida, Inc. in Annapolis Junction, MD (Great store - knowledgeable salesman). I should have the amp by Wednesday. They will put in the factory mods (to the power supply - the other upgrades are already in the RC version) and burn it in for 48 hours.

I liked the practicality of an integrated and absolutely loved the sound of this amp. Can't wait to hear it at home and A/B it against the Krell.

By the way, I just listened to the "Road to Escondido" by J.J. Cale and Eric Clapton and highly recommend this record. This vinyl has extremely low surface noise and great sound quality. We didn't use any digital noise removal between tracks when digitizing. - Steve

slowGEEZR said:

After all the reading and listening, I ended up buying the Jolida from Jolida, Inc. in Annapolis Junction, MD (Great store - knowledgeable salesman). I should have the amp by Wednesday. They will put in the factory mods (to the power supply - the other upgrades are already in the RC version) and burn it in for 48 hours.

I liked the practicality of an integrated and absolutely loved the sound of this amp. Can't wait to hear it at home and A/B it against the Krell.

By the way, I just listened to the "Road to Escondido" by J.J. Cale and Eric Clapton and highly recommend this record. This vinyl has extremely low surface noise and great sound quality. We didn't use any digital noise removal between tracks when digitizing. - Steve

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How did you like Jolida??

GregLett said:

How did you like Jolida??

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I really, really like it. I've taken the Krell out of the system because the Jolida just sounds so good. I was expecting a little softness and a little less control with the Jolida, compared to the Krell, but it really takes hold of the MLs and lets them sing. When I added my new BAT VK-P5 to the system I became aware of how sweet and pure the high frequencies became from vinyl. (As a side note, the Bellari, I now know, was attenuating the highs somewhat, at least subjectively to me.) Another side benefit of the Jolida is the tube glow. With the huge glass window in the faceplate and the mirror behind the 12 tubes, it glows like there are 24 tubes! One thing to note about the 1000RX is that it has a lot of parts upgrades compared to the last JD 1000. There is a large upgrade business for most Jolida products, but it is not needed with this amp. I think the Jolida is a great bargain. - Steve

I just received my six pac two days back. Unfortunately none of the channels worked. Found out that both the Input tunes are blown ones (12AX7). Ordered two pairs from Tubestore (one pair is Electro Harmonix and the other one is JJ Gold plated) I could not resist trying out so I borrowed one EH tube from my friend -- What a sound with DH Lab Q 10 CABLES). Mind you this is w/o the chunky Jensen caps. I connected with my Summit only one channel. I also observed that they have supplied Ruby EL34 TUBES. Can you recommend any superior EL34 tubes (non NOS)? Did you try with Gold Lion KT88 tubes?

Spike said:

I bought my SixPacs after comparing with other amplifiers with similar designs of push-pull EL34 (or KT88) tubes. I have hooked up with Cary SLP-05 PREAMP. I am yet to use my top of the line double run Harmonix cable which cost 3 time the cost of the amp - very fast cable ideal for tube amps.



The reason being that I need a medium-powered amplifier to cope with the tough load presented by the ReQuest's panels. I knew going in that the smaller SET type amplifiers would not work, unless I go to the stratospheric priced Cary 805C or the likes The ARC VT100 sounded dry and too...hi-fi (lifeless?) in my set-up. It also sounded a bit stressed when pushed. The Rogue 90 is a bit better in the mids but still lack the underlying tone. The Prima Luna fared a bit better than the Rogue, but it still lacked the underlying tone I was looking for. Probably due to the small amount of feedback in the design of the PL. When I get to the SixPacs, they offer the magic that draw one into the performance. I won't bore you with the adjectives or "mini-review" of the SixPacs. You can read the online reviews and they do a much better job at describing the SixPacs than I can. The things going for the SixPacs are the 6 EL34 tubes in push-pull triode configuration to produce 50 watts each monobloc. Compared to the other amplifier designs involving 4 output tubes asking to produce 70 watts (PL), 90 watts (Rogue) and 100 watts (ARC). The input tubes are worth mentioning as well. My SixPacs come with the 12BZ7 input tube on top of the EL-84 current source tube. As input tube, I like the 12BZ7 for its big underlying tone, the details and layering of the music. That in addition to the 12BZ7 being...cheap, compared to the high-priced NOS 12AX7 or 6SN7 of the other designs. As a side note, the original Cary V12i had the 6922 input tubes and Dennis "upgraded" his V12R design using the 12BZ7 tubes just because the SixPacs were sounding better than the V12i! I must say that I am partial to the EL34 tubes running in triode mode for I feel that they are very musical in the midrange performance. The KT88 may have better high extension and better punch in the bass but a bit dry in the mids. Without knowing what you're looking for, all I can put down is my experience based on my preferences. I hope it help clarify things a bit for you.

Spike

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abhijit said:

I just received my six pac two days back. Unfortunately none of the channels worked. Found out that both the Input tunes are blown ones (12AX7). Ordered two pairs from Tubestore (one pair is Electro Harmonix and the other one is JJ Gold plated) I could not resist trying out so I borrowed one EH tube from my friend -- What a sound with DH Lab Q 10 CABLES). Mind you this is w/o the chunky Jensen caps. I connected with my Summit only one channel. I also observed that they have supplied Ruby EL34 TUBES. Can you recommend any superior EL34 tubes (non NOS)? Did you try with Gold Lion KT88 tubes?

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Please keep us updated. I've always been curious how the six pacs really are.

I realize this is an old post, but I thought I’d jump on.

I received a used Jolida JD-1000A this past Thursday, and have been listening to it since. It’s similar to Steve/slowGEEZER’s JD-100RC, but an older model. Looks like his has had some parts upgraded as well as his being remote controlled. Mine has stock Jolida 12AX7s, Electro Harmonix 12AT7s, and replaced ‘generic’ Chinese EL34s.
Initial impressions are very positive. Much more bass than I’ve heard out of any of the amps I’ve tried on these speakers in this room, more detail except for possibly the Krell, definitely the smoothest sound. When I bought my Ascents from a seller in Dallas, he had them hooked up to a Levinson 390S CDP/preamp and a Levinson 333 amp (I think the 333, but it was a big Levinson anyway). The thing I remember from listening before I bought them is how smooth and effortless his system sounded. His setup vs. mine, a couple of years, and my bad memory prevent direct comparison, but the Jolida approaches that, reminds me of that sound. All of the usual “strings sound like strings”, “instruments placed on the soundstage”, etc. apply I guess, but the thing that sets it apart is that it’s just more listenable and enjoyable than most other stuff I heard.
And btw, while researching the JD-1000A I stumbled across a review by the one and only Jeff Dorgay, aka Tonepub, when he wrote for TAS. Coincidentally, his digital sources were the Jolida CDP and the Primare CD21 (I have the CD21).

Amps I’ve had in this room with these speakers:
Krell 400xi integrated
Sunfire Stereo II w/ Quicksilver preamp
Parasound HCA-1000A w/ Primare preamp
Primare I21 integrated

I like the sound of the Jolida amps on ML, which I have heard at several dealers. The sound is a little too colored for me to listen to all the time, but it is a nice, mellow, smooth sound. Very musical. I would love to hear their big monoblocs with the 211 tubes.

Rich, their big monoblocs, the Envoy, is definitely a step up from the large integrated amps (JD1000 series). I've heard the Envoy with MBL speakers and the sound was excellent to my ears. Greater control and definition than when the large integrated was hooked up.

sebrof2000 said:

I realize this is an old post, but I thought I’d jump on.

I received a used Jolida JD-1000A this past Thursday, and have been listening to it since.

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Mike, give me a call (I know it's busy around the holidays) and I'll come by and listen. Glad it came in and you like it.

slowGEEZR said:

Rich, their big monoblocs, the Envoy, is definitely a step up from the large integrated amps (JD1000 series). I've heard the Envoy with MBL speakers and the sound was excellent to my ears.

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"Ditto" Steve, and given the fact that, IMO, that room was not set up the way I like (equipment was on the long wall, listening position too close to wall behind us, not my cup of tea !) it was still mighty fine !

I'd love to see / hear a comparrison between Jolida's flagship MonoBlocks and Rogue's new Apollo's !

Yep, one of my favorite rooms from the past show as well...

One of the things that intrigues me about these amps is that they are 211 based. I'd love to try them with my CLS's.

Here comes the inevitable from User211...

I can categorically state that the 211 is the finest sounding amplification device I have ever heard. Every 211 based amp I have ever come across has always sounded great in my book. There must be some naff Chinese ones around, I expect, but you have to try hard to make this device sound bad. Very hard.

Positive aspects of my amps driving Ascents include:

1) Complete seemlessness from top to bottom.
2) Really spacey and airy and very 3D.
3) Stacks of power - at least for Ascents.
4) Great for really long sessions. I often start at 3-4pm when I get home from work on a Friday, and am not done until 2 in the morning many a time.
5) Nice heat output in the winter.
6) You can marvel at how great devices made in the early part of last century actually sound.
7) Pure pride of ownership.
8) Great devices to collect. And they don't depreciate. Rather the opposite, in fact. Not much in hi-fi you can say that about. And it's a really nice feeling to actually own some of the original NOS classics likes RCAs. And a the truly beautifully made Amperex brass bases.
9) They look totally cool.

This device slaughters the 6550/KT88 in my book. My Air Tight ATM2 just sucked by comparison - even with the finest KT88s I could find. It's Ken Kessler's favourite valve/tube. Hell, even Martin Colloms rates the 211 based Cary's extremely highly - and generally he has totally different taste to me.

I'd better shut up before I put 211 prices through the roof... And most of you have heard it all before...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

I thought I'd add one rather bizarre property that for the life of me I will never understand. With a good recording they sound very accurate and detailed, like there is nothing wrong in any way. But with poor recordings, they make the best of it, but oddly they cease to sound accurate. It's as if they know how to make the best of them. How can they do that? It is as if they "know".

With all the SS amps I have ever known or owned, they tend to slaughter poor recordings - they just sound unpleasant. But I am not denying that some SS amps are excellent given great recordings - they truly are. Gamut and Electrocompaniet are two of my favourites. I like Pass amps too. But overall, I prefer the compromises - and it always is a compromise, provided by my amps. They are NOT for sale, and won't be for a long time.