System #228 (Odyssey)

spectral · Dec 28, 2007

1. Member Name: Peter

2. Location: Newton, MA, USA

3. ML Model(s): Odyssey

4. Year Purchased: 2002

5. Mods/Changes: Major Crossover overhaul - see this thread for mod, audible results and resulting frequency response graph. Significant resonance management control - see this thread. Bass attenuation with Caddock 50W resistor; subwoofer in reverse phase to tame moderate 50Hz bump and extend lower frequencies down to 16Hz.

6. Associated Electronics: Spectral DMA-360 Series 2 monoblocks, DMC-30SS Series 2 preamp, SDR-3000 xport; Berkeley Alpha DAC; VPI Aries 3 table/10.5i arm/SDS speed controller; Ortofon A90 cartridge; Ayre P-5xe phono; Revox B77 MkII; Magnum Dynalab Etude FM; MIT 350 UL MkII & 770UL MkII, Kimber Orchid, Hero & Select KS-1030, Nordost Tyr phono wiring; MIT Z Strips; Siltech SPX-20 (transport and turntable motor) & Shunyata Black Mamba CX/HC power cords to the electronics.

7. Comments and/or stories about your Martin Logan experience:

UPDATE 3/28/2010: I am very happy with the system, with a sound that is eerily live, vivid and musical with the right recordings and ruthless with the wrong material, rendering an incredibly palpable, effortless, three dimensional and articulate presentation, with transparency, resolution, truth of timbre, dynamic headroom, and soundstage size that can really floor you. A big part of this is attributed to the stunning 360 Series II monoblocks, which are the only amps so far in the system to lift the last barrier in reproducing one of the most demanding recordings that I know of - the Telarc Carmina Burana LP from the 1980's. The chorus is rendered mostly uncompressed (this is 1980's digital after all), and with the (in)famous Telarc bass drum whacks the first thing one notices is not the thunderous bass but the high pitched impact of the mallet hitting the membrane accompanied by an exceptionally controlled and not overwhelming deep bass, rendering a lifesize drum that's positioned further back in the hall, not in your face like a lot of other systems I have heard. This is stellar music rendition. I have played this recording on a Magico M5/Spectral/Nagra VPS/Goldfinger V2/SME system, and the chorus was far smoother but smaller and placed really far back in the hall - this was clearly a very polite but enjoyable presentation. Voices, winds, piano and drums are particularly eerily realistic.

The amps appear to have no personality. Think of a soprano and a drill sergeant at the same time. They can sound refined with the right recordings and utterly ruthless with the worst studio mixes. It is also interesting how many times I find myself listening at low volumes and still enjoying the right recording thoroughly; all the information is there in spades, in an effortless fashion. Before, I had to turn up the volume considerably to dig out all the pieces.

There are obviously limits to what the system can do, therefore these comments are not to be taken to mean that I have been transported to the concert hall, but the sound is exceptionally clean and lifelike, with the right material.

UPDATE 10/31/2011: A lot of changes have recently taken place - the phenomenal Spectral 30SS Series 2 preamp has arrived, and I have launched on an extensive crossover modification - see this. Choral reproduction has finally now been taken to another level.

UPDATE 12/11/2011: The crossover mod is complete - extremely impressive results

UPDATE 1/2/2012: The speakers' + sub frequency response (RadioShack SPL meter, corrected as per Rives) at the listening position is now as follows (ref at 1kHz):

Code:

Hz          dB       Hz           dB       Hz        dB
---------------------------------------------------------
20         +6.5     250          +3.5      3.15k    +2.5
25         +1.0     315          +4.5      4k       +2.0
31.5         0      400          +5.0      5k       +3.0
40         +4.5     500          +1.5      6.3k     +4.0
50         +4.5     630          -2.0      8k       +3.0
63         -0.5     800          -1.0      10k      -1.0*
80         -3.5      1k            0 (ref)
100        +4.0     1.25k        -1.0
125        +2.5     1.6k         -2.5
160        -0.5      2k          +1.5
200        +2.5     2.5k         +1.5

* (meter roll off). See here for the frequency response curve

Reference Music/JAZZ (CD):

- Jarrett, Pea****, DeJohnette: Inside Out/ECM 1780: knock out recording and performance; the Odysseys still cannot match any true-ribbon Magnepans in clarity of cymbals and drums.
- **** Hyman: From the age of Swing/Reference Recordings 59: can't stop tapping the foot.
- Miles Daivs: Kind of Blue/Columbia: amazing.
- Paquito D'Rivera: Portraits of Cuba/Chesky JD145: remarkable performance and rythm, and recording; this is where the V3's sounded much smaller than the Odysseys and where the M6's large-scale presentation really shone.
- Mongo Santamaria: Mambo Mongo/Chesky JD100: track #7 exhibits all of the system's glory - sound to die for.
- Bill Evans Trio: Sunday at the Village Vanguard/XRCD: nice recording, and great sense of space in this live recording.
- Keith Jarrett: La Scala/ECM 1640: the piano is rendered with frightening clarity.
- Proteus 7: For Your Ears Only/Dorian xCD 90258: stunning clarity of wind instruments and attack.

Reference Music/Classical (CD):

- Holst: The Planets/Mehta Los Angeles Phil/XRCD24
- Mahler: Symphony #2/BSO, Ozawa/Philips 420824-2
- Charpentier: Te Deum/Harmonia Mundi 901298: best winds from a classical recording?
- Copland: Fanfare for the Common Man/Oue, Minnesota/Reference Recordings 93: tear the house down; still far from the best rendering I have heard from better systems.
- Guilmant: Symphony #1 for Organ and Orchestra/Tracey, BBC Phil/Chandos 9271: music and performance to die for.
- Rachmaninoff: Symphonic Dances/Oue, Minnesota/Reference Recordings 96.
- Rutter: Requiem/Reference Recordings 57.
- Saints/Saens: Symphone #3: Telarc 80274. Also BSO/Munch/XRCD24.
- Shostakovich: Violin Concertos No1 op.99, No2 op.99/Scottish National Orch,Jarvi,Lydia Mordkovich/Chandos 8820: tears to my eyes.
- Moussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition/CSO, Reiner/XRCD2.
- Ramirez :Misa Criolla/Jose Carreras/Philips 420955-2.
- Stravinsky: Rite of Spring/Oue, Minnesota/Reference Recordings 70.
- Mozart: Requiem/Dorian 90310.
- Various: Joel Fan: World Keys (piano)/Reference Recordings 106.

More images on page 4 and at http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9365

TomDac · Dec 28, 2007

Welcome aboard!

eknuds01 · Dec 28, 2007

spectral said:
1. Member Name: Peter Sari

I have auditioned the Summits extensively with the same Spectral electronics, and as a demanding audiophile, I could not live with: a) the smaller footprint for the scale of music I listen to; b) the ICEpower amp modules (I much prefer the fast and articulate Spectral bass); c) the distortion from the bass drivers and port noise I heard at fairly high volumes; d) the non-rounded edges. Although the Summits are a bit clearer in the midrange, I've never been able to determine for myself what the fuss about these speakers is all about, except for the stiffer panel frame (nice job there, ML).

But, this all still being the high end, there is room for improvement. Lately, I auditioned the MAGICO V3 with the same Spectral electronics: clearly a superior speaker to the MLs in the midrange with piano, frighteningly fast bass (on drum whacks), far superior high frequencies (where the Odysseys really suck, especially with cymbals and hi hats), but sounding smaller on large orchestral pieces and large scale jazz, with a smaller soundstage (ML shines here), and I just wasn't tapping my foot.

On the high frequencies: this is the only issue I have with my speakers on cymbals and hi hats, and I didn't find the Summits all that improved. I am also puzzled because sibilance through the Odysseys is dead neutral... (and trust me, it's the not the cables or anything like that). I am also looking for links and ideas on improving the crossovers before I "upgrade" to another set of speakers, so please send me some good links. I don't believe these mods will improve the high frequencies, but I think they will improve the overall transparency.

I chose Spectral electronics for their neutral balance, incredible resolution and speed (to match electrostatics), truth of timbre etc., and I have not been let down by the Odysseys - they have exposed every little improvement.

QUOTE]

Wow!! This post ought to stir the pot. I don't think I've ever heard someone say the Odysseys or Summits had resolution issues with the high frequencies.

You do have a nice looking setup there!

You mentioned cross over ideas - well you could always try to add an external cross over to your system and that entails disabling the internal cross-overs within the Odysseys. A few people on this forum are way more qualified than me when it comes to giving more detailed advice in that regard.

One thing that wasn't obvious to me is whether or not you've tried adding room treatments to improve the system response. Of course, this may not be doable in your situation. But we've seen some great posts by JonFo and Ethan (Real Traps) about how adding absorption/diffusing devices can really improve the quality of the listening experience.

As Roberto would say, cables are there for fine tuning. If you want more detail in the high freqs, give some silver ICs a shot. Believe me cables can add/take away a lot! Don't be afraid to try out new things! Like you I have Kimber Kables (the Heros in my system) and they were a tremendous improvement over the old Monster Cables. A lot of people like MIT stuff, but you'll just as many that'll tell you that MIT cables are way overpriced (of course, I think cables, in general, are overpriced and they pop on AudioGon every 10 seconds).

happy hunting!
Erik

Rich · Dec 28, 2007

Welcome aboard.

Looks like you have a great setup. I have to be honest, though. Looking at your picture, it seems to me that any sonic issues you are having aren't with the speakers, electronics or cabling, but with the room acoustics. That appears to be a less than ideal spot to place those particular speakers. But I know that sometimes we just don't have a lot of options in that regard.

There is definitely something wrong if you are having issues at the higher frequencies. My Summits and my Ascents reproduce cymbals and high hats with amazing clarity and realism. I also haven't experienced any distortion or port noise out of my Summits at high volumes like you refer to (by the way, just so you know, the Summit's bass module has no port, so whatever you were hearing, it wasn't port noise, and I believe you would have to reach well beyond ear-splitting levels to get these woofers to distort.) The bass from my Summits is fast, tight and articulate at any volume level. A plucked double bass sounds just like a plucked double bass. But then, I have a room that is acoustically treated to the max and that makes a big difference on the performance of the speaker.

Don't be entirely sure that some of your issue is not in the cabling. Kimber and MIT make some great products, but the question is: are they great for electrostatic speakers? What is the capacitance, inductance and resistance of these cables? I don't know the answers to these questions, but I would not dismiss it out of hand as something to consider. Also, you may want to consider bi-amping, which improves not just the bass but also the panel response.

Glad to have you aboard. Enjoy the Music!

spectral · Dec 28, 2007

Thanks. Acoustic treatments are a thing for the future, and quite possibly, room placement is related to the fact that I just don't perceive cymbals and hi hats so well, or at least as I did with the V3s, although, note, I also didn't with the Summits either at the dealer's (same setup, plus full room treatment). Just FYI - MIT cabling is required by the Spectral amp. Sorry, I did not realize the Summits are not ported, but regardless, I was not happy with the bass performance.

Rich · Dec 28, 2007

spectral said:
Just FYI - MIT cabling is required by the Spectral amp. Sorry, I did not realize the Summits are not ported, but regardless, I was not happy with the bass performance.

Not being overly familiar with Spectral electronics, I didn't realize this. This could be part of your problem. You did say that your audition of the Summits was with the same spectral gear, right. Could be something in the spectral gear or the MIT cabling that is causing your issue with the highs.

I looked up your amp on the spectral website and I did notice that it does not double output wattage with a halving of impedence, which is pretty important with electrostatic speakers since they dip down below two ohms at higher frequencies (your Odysseys dip to 1 Ohm at 20 Khz.). According to their website, your amp puts out 200 wpc at 8 ohms, 350 wpc at 4 ohms and 570 at 2 ohms. An amp that doubles wattage with a halving of impedence would put out 200, 400, and 800, respectively. That could potentially be the source of your issues with the high frequencies. Or it could be that the MIT cabling doesn't synergize well with the Logans. I don't know. But I would be interested to know if your impressions were the same after auditioning the Summits with some different gear and cables.

spectral · Dec 28, 2007

Yes the amp does not truly double, but what does... only Krell from what is available in this area and I have tried, and some 350Mc monos I tried long ago sounded just OK (and with different cables). Plus, I see a lot of people use tubes on the Logans, and these are not even rated below 4 ohms, and so many other amps that don't truly double either. I don't think real doubling of power is critical here - stability down to low impedances is, and there is no issue here with this amp.

At some point I will try other cables, but I think I am just overly critical here... it's not that the treble is bad (although I did use the word 'suck'), it's just that cymbals and hi hats don't sound like the real thing - they don't give me that wow factor - or at least, not like the silkiness I am used to with ribbons (I also own an old pair of Magnepan MG IIIa's in another system with much lesser electronics), and not what I heard from that Revelator tweeter on the MAGICO V3s (same electronics, same speaker cables).

It may very well be the MIT speaker cables that don't work well with ML, if others' treble performance is truly stellar. Anyone else using MIT wiring?

MPS · Dec 28, 2007

Thank you for your very interesting posting. Great system you have there!

It’s good to hear such a solid opinion as people seem to prefer to go with the flow and too much consensus doesn’t allow room for personal preferences or different points of view.
It’s surprising to hear that you didn’t prefer Prodigys over Odysseys as their larger panel area would more likely produce even a greater footprint for the scale of music which you are after. Prodigys also produce more LF content and this can easily sound like a softer, slower bass but it’s actually due to relationship between lower and higher bass notes. As for the sound of Summits they definitely have different character than older line of ML’s. There is one word that in my opinion describes sound difference vs. old line it’s coherence, other than that it’s more up to personal preference. I don’t know what kind of impedance Summits present at LF area but audible distortion might be due to mismatch of power amplifier and ice-power module input.

Odyssey is truly a great speaker and you seem to be overall happy with the sound so why change? I have too considered doing some modifications to crossovers. First I need to have a look at the current components ; ) There are some fine capacitors from Mundorf with silver oil construction and high quality foil inductors to go with. By keeping the original component values this wouldn’t really be a modification but rather an improvement (hopefully). The sound of high quality ribbon tweeter is something to die for… still I’m not sure if it’s really better or just different. Also ageing panels do contribute to HF reproduction.

Acoustic environment is commonly very over looked issue when considering component choices. Your speakers are located in front of openings so the back wave sound is not reflected directly to listening position. This will reduce overall level of HF sound and may have something to do with your experience of lacking high frequency capability. I had the same idea for directing lowest frequencies to a subwoofer. By cutting Odysseys at 40Hz and setting low pass filter to 30Hz for sub a gap can be created to were problematic room node is located. (in my case around 36Hz)
IMHO it would seem best solution to keep current setup and try to optimise it instead of looking for a fix to a problem that might not be a problem after all.

spectral · Dec 28, 2007

MPS said:
It’s surprising to hear that you didn’t prefer Prodigys over Odysseys as their larger panel area would more likely produce even a greater footprint for the scale of music which you are after.

True, but Prodigies would have overwhelmed the room in the bass - I already cut off the Odysseys by -3dB with the switch, and the sub smooths it even further (room treatments will go further yet).

MPS said:
Odyssey is truly a great speaker and you seem to be overall happy with the sound so why change?

The Odysseys are superb, but there are truly stellar speakers out there that outperform them. The question is, what price stellar performance? The example with the V3s is a good case in point - if they had a larger radiating area (e.g. two midrange drivers in D'Appolito) to sound "bigger" and I could afford that configuration, the rest of their characteristics are already a major step up from the Odysseys, as described earlier.

MPS said:
Also ageing panels do contribute to HF reproduction.

BTW, anyone else notice that treble performance is affected by room humidity? Just run a wet piece of cloth (Windex) over the panels and notice the treble take a nose dive. The treble performance is better with low humidity, but we can't live with humidity in the 20-30% range (the room's humidity ranges 40-55%).

MPS said:
Your speakers are located in front of openings so the back wave sound is not reflected directly to listening position. This will reduce overall level of HF sound and may have something to do with your experience of lacking high frequency capability.

This is a really good point, and can't do anything about it at the moment...

spectral · Dec 29, 2007

Close-up of the electronics

spectral · Jan 10, 2008

I have posted my reference recorded material in the original post.

MiTT · Jan 10, 2008

spectral said:
I have posted my reference recorded material in the original post.

A a great list it is too. I noticed that you have quite a few Reference Records discs on the list. Does the Spectral DAC decode HDCD?

Nice system by the way. I've only heard a Spetral setup once, with Avalons. I was impressed to say the least.

spectral · Jan 11, 2008

Yes the Spectral DAC decodes HDCD (Keith Johnson was a co-developer of the format, and has been the recording engineer for RR for decades; I won't be surprised if RR are using Johnson-designed microphone preamps too). BTW, I am very intrigued by the new Rockport Ankaa speaker that I am reading about at CES 2008 reports.

spectral · Jan 14, 2008

I just got the Feb 2008 TAS with the V3 review. I couldn't agree with RH more, although I still think the soundstage is smaller than any panel's. Check out also the Alon Wolf interview and the references to Reference Recordings and Jeff Rowland. This is one mouth watering speaker that probably still needs a sub.

spectral · Mar 1, 2008

I recently upgraded to the all-silver Kimber Select KS-1030 interconnects between the DAC and preamp, and I am astounded at the increased low level detail rendered, as well as slightly better overall transparency (less energy storage?). And I am talking about CDs that I have been listening to for decades here. I also notice less bloating in the bass, thus more neutrality overall. The issues with high hats are alleviated too, but not gone. Thankfully, I usually buy my cables used, which saves a bunch.

TrumpetDoug · Mar 2, 2008

Mit

spectral said:
It may very well be the MIT speaker cables that don't work well with ML, if others' treble performance is truly stellar. Anyone else using MIT wiring?

I use MIT speaker cabling and have always thought the highs (esp.) sound better than anything in my price point and actually well beyond ( I have the "modest" Ascents) I picked-up the MIT in the used market (Enhanced Image 9.9, MIT 4 Bi-Wire) I'm not sure where these used to be positioned in the MIT line, but they sure work for my ears, and pocket book.

Doug - out

Dreamer · Mar 4, 2008

spectral said:
BTW, anyone else notice that treble performance is affected by room humidity? Just run a wet piece of cloth (Windex) over the panels and notice the treble take a nose dive. The treble performance is better with low humidity, but we can't live with humidity in the 20-30% range (the room's humidity ranges 40-55%).

I've been watching this thread with great interest, because I'm a fan of Spectral gear. (I can't afford it, but I've heard it in several ML systems, and liked what I heard) Spectral amps and preamps ARE incredibly "fast" sounding, and can compliment ML speakers, if they are cabled correctly. Spectral's insistance on MIT cables is another reason I've never bought Spectral gear--I've never heard an MIT cable that sounded as good with ML speakers as Nordost's mid-line stuff...

However, what REALLY caught my eye in this thread, and prompted my "jumping into the fray" was the remark quoted above...

Dude, you've got an awesome system. Specral gear top to bottom, and those ML Odysey's can be VERY sweet-sounding speakers. But if you are using Windex on your cleaning cloths for the panels, it's no wonder they sound like crap in the highs. It's a minor miracle the mylar has any conductor on it's surface at all, and it's even more of a miracle that the mylar hasn't melted, or at least developed ripples and holes.

Toss your Windex, bro, and go buy a Dyson vacuum cleaner. You've obviously got enough money to get a Dyson--they will suck ALL the dust, lint, and any other air-borne debris from your panels safely.

But if you've been using Windex to clean your panels, you probably need to call ML and order some replacement panels ASAP...

I won't even clean the wood parts of my Sequels with anything more aggressive than a VERY lightly dampened cloth, and the only thing that gets near my panels is a vacuum cleaner nozzle (the one with no bristles!)

--Richard

--Richard

TrumpetDoug · Mar 4, 2008

Dreamer said:
I won't even clean the wood parts of my Sequels with anything more aggressive than a VERY lightly dampened cloth, and the only thing that gets near my panels is a vacuum cleaner nozzle (the one with no bristles!)

--Richard

--Richard

Well said Richard. Anything other than a vacuum or a damp cloth is a no go. Might you be able to see the damage if any has occurred?

Doug - out

rhd1953 · Mar 5, 2008

Humidity will do it.

One day last summer my CLS's produced almost no sound at all...due to very high humidity (about 100%).
I checked everything: Unplugged power cord, nope. Loose speaker cable connectors, nope. Non-electrostatic speakers sound normal, yes. I closed the windows and turned on the A/C and in 30 minutes the CLS's were back to normal. Believe it.

Craig · Mar 7, 2008

Is that a Zoethecus audio rack? I've seen many Zoethecus racks but i've never seen a 6 shelf Zoethecus rack before. That's a rare piece and they don't make those anymore.

I used to own Odysseys powered by a 200 watt Krell amp and that combination had the clearest and most resolute highs I've ever heard before. More so than the Aeons, Aeon i's, Ascents, Summits and Sonus Faber Cremonas. It was the best in this category but only by a slim margin. Although, I didn't have the Krell amp with some of these other speakers.

System #228 (Odyssey)

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