Gen Y prefers more accurate audio - but does not like ML

Ouch! this one is going to be controversial:

In a recent blog post, Dr. Sean Olive of Harman International shares the results of some small-scale but formal research they did on listening preferences of Gen Y listeners.

As you all know, the buzz lately has been all about how no one really cares about audio quality anymore.

So Harman set out to see for themselves.

The shocker in this research is that as part of the listener preference tests, they included a MartinLogan Vista speaker in the mix.

Now, they try and sugar coat who the bottom three speakers in the preference tests are, but then on slide 28, they give away that Speaker 'C' is the MartinLogan. Duh, the frequency response plot would give that away anyway. Nice dipole-too-close to wall comb-filtering clearly evident, as well as the other dipole induced signature: broad dip in the mid-bass.

The big ouch is that their 'trained listeners' really dislike the ML. See slide 27.

So, good news: Kids like quality audio

Bad news: they either don't like ML's or, my view: they don't like an ML setup by Harman.

I chalk up the poor showing (and the bad Freq resp curve) to poor setup.

As we frequently cover on this forum, ML's, like all large line-source dipoles, must be setup correctly or they are just not going to deliver.

Since the research used the automatic speaker rotation platform at Harman, I know the positioning of the speaker would contribute to lousy performance.

The assumption that one can position four different speakers at the same identical location and expect valid results is silly when mixing in a line-source dipole.

Might was well grab a JBL speaker, turn it around to face the wall and then do measurements and listening tests on it and see how well that turns out.

Frankly, I expected better out of that lab and crew.

So much for the self-declared experts. They used the platform to remove "loudspeaker positional biases". Stick the title "Dr." in front of a person's name and he becomes an expert!

I wonder if Floyd Toole is still associated with Harman.

Gen Y sitting here listening to Summits. ;-)

Pardon me, but what age group does the gen Y cover?

Jimna said:

Pardon me, but what age group does the gen Y cover?

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I think Gen Y is typically considered '80-00.

The massive ouch is that the moderate-strongly preferred Infinity costs $500 and the Vista $3800.

Even a well positioned Vista would have trouble beating the Inifinity's FR curve.

Hard to see the reason for the huge disparity between the trained and untrained listener wrt the MLs.

This survey proves the more you spend on loudspeakers, the worse they get.

Cool.

Order a pair of Infinity's immediately.

Has anyone actually heard this Infinity model?

Bernard said:

So much for the self-declared experts. They used the platform to remove "loudspeaker positional biases". Stick the title "Dr." in front of a person's name and he becomes an expert!

I wonder if Floyd Toole is still associated with Harman.

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Floyd is retired and no longer directly involved.

Sean is no dummy, he really knows his stuff, but I'm afraid that sometimes there are commercial axes to grind and even if he knows a dipole will fair poorly in that location, the consistency of the experiment will be maintained. And if that makes his company's $500 speaker look good, well, then that's fine.

They also did a bit of this when they tested room correctors, and followed vague manufacturers directions to a T, and made Audyssey perform poorly.

Based on these two data points, I'd start taking any comparative 'study' they do with non-Harman products with a big grain of salt.

User211 said:

The massive ouch is that the moderate-strongly preferred Infinity costs $500 and the Vista $3800.

Even a well positioned Vista would have trouble beating the Inifinity's FR curve.?

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Only in the mid-bass. If the wall behind the speaker is well-treated, it will measure a whole lot better in the mid's and highs.

The big challenge for any dipole going down in to the 200 to 400hz range is going to be lackluster mid-bass due to cancelations. Basic physics.

User211 said:

Hard to see the reason for the huge disparity between the trained and untrained listener wrt the MLs.

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The trained listeners love Harmon products, as that's what they hear most and what they as a group have converged on in terms of preference, since they help design them.
Mind you, they really do have good skills, and can spot issues an avg listener might not, but in the end, it is a self-reinforcing circle-dance in that they help refine products that they like, and learn to like that type of product (and sound).

User211 said:

Has anyone actually heard this Infinity model?

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Yes, I have a neighbor that has an HT setup based on these, and they actually do a very good job at that. I see them as very good value. So I’ll not throw stones at the product per se.

However, it is a dynamic speaker, and it has excellent mid-bass performance. No question that on rock and similar types of music, they have a lot of bass / mid-bass presence.

But like all dynamic speakers, they have a 6dB/doubling of distance drop-off in the mid/highs. But a line-source like the Vista only has 3dB drop-off/doubling in that range. So the Vista might sound overly bright, as in real SPL at listening seat, it could well be as much as 6dB louder in the highs.
Combine that with weak mid-bass, and not surprising avg listeners go for the louder bass and less ‘forward’ highs.

These are always stupid things for a mfr to publish.

First, how big was their "representative sample?" Second, you don't think the guys that make Infinity speakers are going to go out on their website and say that 6 out of 10 people that heard their speaker preferred something else, do you?

Regardless of the findings, there are so many different speakers out there, precious few people are going to agree on any of it. You can always tweak your data to suit the result you'd like to have.

tonepub said:

These are always stupid things for a mfr to publish.

First, how big was their "representative sample?" Second, you don't think the guys that make Infinity speakers are going to go out on their website and say that 6 out of 10 people that heard their speaker preferred something else, do you?

Regardless of the findings, there are so many different speakers out there, precious few people are going to agree on any of it. You can always tweak your data to suit the result you'd like to have.

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Exactly. +1.

There's so much equipment out there - everyone prefers something different. That's why we all have different systems.

It's like saying that of a particular group, 6 out of 10 people preferred Brittany Spears to Norah Jones. Big deal. What does that mean? Doesn't mean one is better or worse artist. It's just preference of a particular group. So what. Pointless.

Looks like his "blog" is just thinly veiled marketing hype for all the Harman branded gear. Totally biased IMHO, and of no educational value. I have removed that "bookmark" from my audio favorites.

A link to audioholics where Sean Olive goes into some of the setup details of the listening tests. Please note that the speaker measurements are performed anechoically as described to me on another forum by Sean Olive.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66341

Maybe those guinea pigs simply chose the sound that they were used to.

i believe much of it also links to the type of music Harman put to the ear of test subject. More Pop, tight deep bass and more lyrics than instrumental; this might well fitted by typical dynamic speakers and not Vista. The "Y" are not looking for clarity in sound but more of what they can feel from deep bass + lyrics they can sing along :ROFL:

People like what they like, love what they love. Considering myself as a cross over to Gen Y ('77), I'm listening to DMC-30SL+Ayre+Spire though; and that's my choice

You can certainly get plenty of deep bass with a pair of Spires....

I don't think there is anything wrong either with Generation "Y" or any of the speakers......
The problem lies with the Researchers.
Firstly they wax lyrical about how positioning a conventional speaker 3ft from side walls gives impressive stage width etc. Yes....and a wealth of interfering early reflections that announce "here is a loudspeaker sitting in a corner".

How they can expect a random 7.1 Home Theatre receiver, even one of repute, to drive a range of speakers, and in particular electrostats, acceptably, has questionable judgement (as anyone who has tested a range of amplifiers in their own home with 'stats will readily verify).
It is a fact that even high quality, high power monoblocks and stereo amps can sound less able with 'stats. Sometimes even purportedly less powerful but higher quality amps can have far greater success e.g. better power supply. Although the Vista may be the baby of the range it does not mean it can be used in conjunction with any old rubbish.

Where buying loudspeakers is concerned, the listener chooses what pleases him most. If there was an equally pleasing conventional speaker out there at a non mind-boggling price that "drives" my room as effectively as an ML and has the ability to disappear into the soundscape....I would buy it today....

File this particular experiment under "best ignored".

On a lighter note, I have two Gen Y sons, both of whom have been exposed to my ML system for a few years. Both love listening to my system, but think that Dad went over-board with regard to his hobby.

Both have moved out of the house and have been investigating the purchase of their own audio systems.

Their preferences: 1) high quality systems in their cars, 2) portable systems (iPods/iPhones with Skull Candy Skull Crusher-type headphones), 3) an inexpensive HT system with a really big flat screen and sub to match!

There seems to be a direct correlation between the quantity of bass experienced and the perception of audio quality. Also, audio is not a sit-down-and-enjoy experience for them, audio is loud background music while they are on the run.

Last, while not true for my sons, it is certainly true for many of their friends (and a serious concern for us medical professionals) that many Gen Y's have impaired hearing at their tender ages. Use of earbuds/headphones at high volume levels, riding in cars with high volume levels, etc. take a toll on their hearing. So, I hope that Harmon's test subjects had normal hearing to begin with? Otherwise, kids with this type of hearing impairment will tend to hear the bass preferentially over the rest of the frequency spectrum.

As I recall, I kinda had the same preferences when I was their age!

Best Wishes,

Rick

JonFo said:

Floyd is retired and no longer directly involved.

Sean is no dummy, he really knows his stuff, but I'm afraid that sometimes there are commercial axes to grind and even if he knows a dipole will fair poorly in that location, the consistency of the experiment will be maintained. And if that makes his company's $500 speaker look good, well, then that's fine.

They also did a bit of this when they tested room correctors, and followed vague manufacturers directions to a T, and made Audyssey perform poorly.

Based on these two data points, I'd start taking any comparative 'study' they do with non-Harman products with a big grain of salt.

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I took a look at his profile. He does seem to have great credentials; however, he really undermines his own credibility by so obviously acting as a servant to Harman's commercial interests. Most unfortunate.

Generation Y are born in the mid-1980's. This generation are tech-savvy, they are still tight with regards to budget. Therefore, Gen Y are legal professionals who are in their 20's and are just entering the workforce, that's why Generation Y are pessimistic about financial future and worried about retirement. According to a recent survey, most of the adults from this generation, weren't confident that they'll still have money in the near future.